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Subject: Is voting simultaneous and in public, or secret? rss

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Clyde W
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This is kind of disheartening. I noticed that the Wikipedia article for this game is citing the rules of the game as evidence that voting for missions is secret. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Resistance_%28party_game%29...

In particular, it says:
Wikipedia article wrote:
During each round of the game, the player to the left of the previous Leader becomes the new Leader. Depending on the stage of the game, the Leader needs to select a certain number of players to send out on a mission (the Leader may choose to go out on the mission himself). The table below shows the required number of commandos to go out on a mission. All of the players discuss the Leader's choice and secretly[1] (or in some versions publicly and concomitently) vote (sometimes after a time limit in case of a prolonged discussion) whether to accept the team make-up or not. If a majority is not reached, leadership passes on to the next player to the left, who proposes another distribution of plans. This continues until a majority of players agree with the current Leader's distribution of plans. If the plans are rejected five times in a row, the Imperial Spies automatically win the current round, because there is too much discord within the rebel team to function properly.


With the citation of [1] being:
Quote:
1. "Indie Boards & Cards - The Resistance Rules". Retrieved 6 June 2012.


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Jonathan Harrison
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Re: Is voting simulatenous and in public, or secret?
This screwed us over our first play, too. Voting is simultaneous and public. But if you're not careful, it's easy to read the rules the other way.
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Clyde W
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For the record, I've edited the WP article myself and started a discussion on the "talk" page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Resistance_%28party_game%29
 
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Jeremiah Lee
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I think what's going on is they're trying to say you choose secretly. The vote is revealed, but you make the choice and reveal without knowing what other people are choosing.

That's how the game plays (as you know), but I think they just worded it in a way that makes it tricky on the wiki.
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Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
but I think they just worded it in a way that makes it tricky on the wiki.

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Clyde W
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Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
I think what's going on is they're trying to say you choose secretly. The vote is revealed, but you make the choice and reveal without knowing what other people are choosing.

That's how the game plays (as you know), but I think they just worded it in a way that makes it tricky on the wiki.
I dunno, looks like there was a secret/public edit war at one point.
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Jonathan Harrison
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clydeiii wrote:
Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
I think what's going on is they're trying to say you choose secretly. The vote is revealed, but you make the choice and reveal without knowing what other people are choosing.

That's how the game plays (as you know), but I think they just worded it in a way that makes it tricky on the wiki.
I dunno, looks like there was a secret/public edit war at one point.

Those damn Spies are at it again.
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Jeremiah Lee
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clydeiii wrote:
Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
I think what's going on is they're trying to say you choose secretly. The vote is revealed, but you make the choice and reveal without knowing what other people are choosing.

That's how the game plays (as you know), but I think they just worded it in a way that makes it tricky on the wiki.
I dunno, looks like there was a secret/public edit war at one point.
I don't recall there ever being a rule where the mission proposal vote was gathered and then shuffled and revealed all mixed up like the mission cards. I can understand the misunderstanding, if that's what happened, but I don't think it ever was intended to be played that way.

Where's Don E when you need him?
 
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Clyde W
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I've played the game (online) with Don and voting was public.

The Second Edition rules are actually really clear on this, while First was a bit less so.
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Callan Finn
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Our gaming group also made this same mistake - after I played online and found our group was doing it wrong, I told them, and they still didn't believe me (at first), quoting these rules and interpreting them to mean the votes, like the mission cards, were to be shuffled and then revealed secretly.

Our gaming group still plays with secret voting. Personally, I don't mind it either way.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Our group always has the votes for the team be secret as well. It adds more suspense to the game and gives the spies more of a chance to meddle. Public voting makes it too easy to determine who a spy is.
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Machiavellian wrote:
Our group always has the votes for the team be secret as well. It adds more suspense to the game and gives the spies more of a chance to meddle. Public voting makes it too easy to determine who a spy is.


This does fundamentally change the game though. In a game of deduction, voting information is important.
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I can't imagine spies losing in a game with private voting... Wouldn't the spies just push almost every dirty team?
If rebels start to vote no to everything to counteract this, spies could also just start just voting no, making the voting record completely useless.
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Vanderscamp wrote:
I can't imagine spies losing in a game with private voting... Wouldn't the spies just push almost every dirty team?
If rebels start to vote no to everything to counteract this, spies could also just start just voting no, making the voting record completely useless.


It would just be a random exercise with good odds given to the spies. It would be an okay variant, but to have it a base game would ruin what I like about that game.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Without plot cards, which in my opinion aren't worth adding, there are always more Resistance members than spies. The spies cannot sabotage a mission vote if they cannot convince at least one legitimate member of the Resistance to vote against the proposed mission.

As for deductive logic, you can still use that to a degree. At its heart, this is a game of reading other people and determining whether they are telling the truth or not. You can always ask them what they voted and try to figure out who is sabotaging voting. In a smaller game we can often tell whether a mission is going to succeed or fail before the mission even begins by revealing the votes alone. "Hmmm. Two failures, four successes. Seems like the spies don't like this set-up. If we knew who voted, our job would be considerably easier."

Personally, I can't see how you couldn't figure out who the spies are after a two or three rounds of public voting. Especially in a 5 or 6 player game.
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When voting is public, spies learn to vote stealthily.
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Machiavellian wrote:
Without plot cards, which in my opinion aren't worth adding, there are always more Resistance members than spies. The spies cannot sabotage a mission vote if they cannot convince at least one legitimate member of the Resistance to vote against the proposed mission.

As for deductive logic, you can still use that to a degree. At its heart, this is a game of reading other people and determining whether they are telling the truth or not. You can always ask them what they voted and try to figure out who is sabotaging voting. In a smaller game we can often tell whether a mission is going to succeed or fail before the mission even begins by revealing the votes alone. "Hmmm. Two failures, four successes. Seems like the spies don't like this set-up. If we knew who voted, our job would be considerably easier."

Personally, I can't see how you couldn't figure out who the spies are after a two or three rounds of public voting. Especially in a 5 or 6 player game.


It might be your fellow players who can't play spy. Also, the plot cards add plenty to the game. Definitely provides for a variety of interested situations. I prefer using the Avalon roles though.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Vanderscamp wrote:
When voting is public, spies learn to vote stealthily.


It definitely isn't an issue with our fellow players not knowing how to play spy. We have some very skilled players in our usual groups and a lot of deducing / bluffing / logic games go on.

In our games the spies STILL have to vote stealthily. Obviously a mission with the spy also doesn't ALWAYS fail, as they may wish to keep hidden until later and strike later.

In a small game (5 or 6 players) if there are only two negative votes, we can usually be sure that the spies are not on this mission.

I've played with the public mission votes before and we found it just too easy to determine who the spy is. I cannot understand how the five failed mission proposals in a row could even be a possibility with open voting (that said, in my hundreds of plays with secret voting it's only happened once and that was in a nine player game)

Some have said "In a secret vote, the spies will just always vote down any non-spy team" I don't see how that could happen. Let's say there are three spies in a eight player game. The mission fails with four no votes. In most cases it's clear that the spies didn't want that mission. Make an open statement, telling the Resistance to vote for this and the mission should pass the next time. Obviously there is more paranoia and it does make things easier for the spies, but our percentage of wins is pretty even, with a slight edge to the Resistance.

If you include plot cards, I can't see how you couldn't use secret voting (except in the case of pre-select or always reveal first cards). The Resistance should win every time.

As for Avalon, I haven't played that yet. Does that have open voting as well? (I know it has Merlin, an Assassin, an unknown spy, etc.)
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James Cheng
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Hmm, what happened when you see six Yes vote in 8p game?
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Obviously it varies with each specific game, which mission is being voted on, how many failed missions have happened, and depends on how shifty people have been and what others have said. Our games tend to be very vocal, with lots of theorizing and discussion happening before missions are even proposed.

Generally speaking however, with six yes votes in a eight player game I would be worried. I'd inquire as to who voted no before the mission launched. Then if the mission failed, more information would be revealed. If three people "say" they voted no, well, the trick is finding out who is lying. But generally that doesn't happen. That alone can provide information to resistance players.

I will be running a large game tonight with several new players. I will start out with the public mission voting, the following game secret mission voting, then maybe cards. I'll try to get an opinion from the new players which they prefer after all games.
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Clyde W
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Nic, can you please say "accept" or "reject" proposals, in order to not confuse "passing" or "failing" missions? The distinction is important in order for us to understand exactly what you're trying to convey to us.

Also, have you played The Resistance: Avalon yet?
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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I have not played The Resistance: Avalon. I have heard good things and I understand most of the additional rules added with roles. I look forward to eventually playing it.
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James Wing
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I think the plot card Opinion Maker would be next to worthless if voting wasn't done in secret.
 
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wingman wrote:
I think the plot card Opinion Maker would be next to worthless if voting wasn't done in secret.


Voting is a two-stage process:
1) Players secretly select their vote
2) Players publicly reveal their vote

Opinion Maker adds an earlier step:

0) Opinion Maker publicly reveals their vote

As for the value of knowing how someone's voting before choosing your vote, that depends on how obvious people are about their voting.

If spies always vote for dirty teams and against clean teams, then seeing how a (suspected) spy votes tells you whether you should reject that team or not. If the spies don't vote based on their hidden knowledge, then you've neutralised that advantage.
 
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