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Subject: Situation 2 Objective rss

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Wesley Williams
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It seems a little gamey, but what is to prevent the Russian player from taking a truck and running around the board for 10 turns, securing a decisive victory?

I know PB isn't supposed to be a simulation, but it doesn't really seem realistic.

Am I missing something?
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Pokey 64
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As soon as 10 Russian units are eliminated, Germans win the scenario with a marginal victory.
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Peter Lloyd
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The German objective is to kill Russians. If the Germans kill 20 units, who cares what the truck is doing? At the end of 10 turns, the higher victory level wins.

Block the roads, corral the truck, and kill it. (Personally, I don't think trucks should count as units.)
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John Labelle
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I agree. Trucks should not count as units.
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John Kovacs
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Momoshiro wrote:
I agree. Trucks should not count as units.


It's not stated in the PanzerBlitz rules, but it is stated in the Panzer Leader rules on pages 14-15:

"XIV. Using the Situation Cards
B. General Rules for the Situations
8. Trucks, wagons, empty fortifications, and temporary bridge counters may NOT control hexes. Also, these unit types do not count in any way for victory determination either for units destroyed, or units occupying certain mapboard sections."

This rule should be applied to PanzerBlitz games as well.
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Taking the rules as written, this situation is not really worth playing. A walkover for the Russians.
 
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Wesley Williams
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panzer6 wrote:
As soon as 10 Russian units are eliminated, Germans win the scenario with a marginal victory.


Why would they win immediately? If the truck was deep in German territory, the Russian player would be sitting on a decisive victory, waiting for 10 turns to elapse.

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. It does seem the scenario is a bit broken as written. We're playing ours through, though. Currently on turn 6 with the aforementioned situation (i.e. truck).

EDIT: typo
 
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There's a file in the files section that gives a brief overview of the balance of each situation.
 
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Peter Lloyd
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Quote:
Why would they win immediately?


They wouldn't. Nothing on the scenario card says they would.

If the Germans win immediately with 10 kills (ie: The game ends), how would the German player ever get a tactical or decisive victory?
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Pokey 64
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mtgjudge wrote:
panzer6 wrote:
As soon as 10 Russian units are eliminated, Germans win the scenario with a marginal victory.


Why would they win immediately? If the truck was deep in German territory, the Russian player would be sitting on a decisive victory, waiting for 10 turns to elapse.

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. It does seem the scenario is a bit broken as written. We're playing ours through, though. Currently on turn 6 with the aforementioned situation (i.e. truck).

EDIT: typo


The german force is mechanized (tanks, stugs and halftracks). The russian force is lightly motorized (2 trucks and a wagon) Killing the trucks and wagon will get the german player six of the ten units they need to win. The mortar units with the infantry will be the first to die in the following attacks.

There's only one russian unit that's anywhere near a threat. The SU76. It's the russians only hope to be anywhere close to the victory condition at turn 10.
 
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Steven Bucey
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Infomanohio wrote:
Momoshiro wrote:
I agree. Trucks should not count as units.


It's not stated in the PanzerBlitz rules, but it is stated in the Panzer Leader rules on pages 14-15:

"XIV. Using the Situation Cards
B. General Rules for the Situations
8. Trucks, wagons, empty fortifications, and temporary bridge counters may NOT control hexes. Also, these unit types do not count in any way for victory determination either for units destroyed, or units occupying certain mapboard sections."

This rule should be applied to PanzerBlitz games as well.
It's pretty pointless to try to fix the Panzerblitz rules using the Panzer Leader rules - you 'fix' one thing and you either screw up another or you break the balance in one of the 4 or 5 scenarios that are balanced as is. Besides, the Panzer Leader rules have a pile of issues of their own.

This is from my personal experience, I tried to do just that for the better part of 30 years (finally gave up about 10 years ago when I found better tactical level games).
 
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Dennis Kahlbaum
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Steven:

Just curious, what better tactical level games have you found?

Thanks.
 
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Peter Lloyd
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In my case Panzer Grenadier. It needs a little tweeking, but overall works well.
 
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Ned JSP
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I may be wrong, but it seems there is a general misinterpretation by at least a couple of peeps in this thread. In regards to victory conditions, as pointed out, there is no automatic victory (i.e. the game ends like check mate), but you keep going then work out who 'won' at the end. Secondly, in the 'Situations Introduction' card (the reverse of the Situation 13 information) it discusses how to use the victory conditions.

Remember that both sides can achieve victory conditions, although this is not always the case in all the scenarios. In Situation 2, the Germans could destroy 15 units, while the Russians get a unit say 10 hexes from the board edge. In this case both sides have met the criteria for a Marginal Victory, therefore the result is a draw. Likewise you use a sort of subtraction rule for varying levels of victory. That is, if the Russians achieve a Marginal victory and the Germans a Tactical Victory, the Germans win by a Marginal Victory.

In my opinion; and I am not accusing the starter of this thread of this, they were merely asking the question; it is because of play like this truck business that lead people to the conclusion that PB is majorly flawed. It is far from perfect of course, but if people want to play against the spirit of the game, they are not a worthy opponent.If one claims that a Scenario is flawed because you can simply place armoured units on bridges or fords etc. then they are playing for the wrong reasons. Even the idea of Victory Conditions isn't great, but gives you a chance to 'win'. The victory conditions try to give you an objective, try to 'balance' a scenario, not always successfully.

This is one of my bug bears about wargaming, if you want to try to replicate warfare (impossible) you should forget about these victory conditions. Enjoy getting an insight into the problems and challenges commanders faced. For the Germans in this campaign, so many times they achieved miraculous 'victories' against all odds, but it was arguable whether the losses they suffered, however minor, were worth it. Some of the situations try to show this, you have to balance meeting your victory conditions against losing too many men and machines. Remember the well used term 'Pyrrhic Victory'!


I for one enjoy trying to nut out a solution against a handy opponent. I enjoy facing a battle I know I can't win, but gee it is fun to try. I look at what a scenario is trying to represent.

Situation 2 shows a typically tiny German force that must attempt to 'jab a bear with a sharp stick', slow it down as much as possible while doing as much damage as possible. It can't possibly stop it, but the strategic situation dictates that they must harass and slow the advance to allow other units to withdraw. In reality the Germans cannot 'win', but the Victory Conditions try to give you an indication of who did their job best, the Russians in advance or the Germans in their bear jabbing.
The interdiction of a handful of trucks into the German rear would have absolutely no impact, except perhaps providing the Germans with some much needed vehicular transport once they get captured later on.

End of Rant!!

Happy Gaming.



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Wesley Williams
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Thanks for your input.

I agree that one should play within the "spirit" of the game, but I prefer a diligent game designer and his/her playtesters to remove such rule abuses/workarounds from the in-game possibilities. Many of us fancy ourselves as wiley wargamers, and using the boundaries of the rules in a clever way to prevail against our opponent is part of it.

Perhaps the scenario victory conditions need to be modified to avoid this particular issue, meanwhile incentivizing each player to behave in a historically-similar way to the actual combatants in WW2.
 
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Ned JSP
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You're right there, of course it would be ideal if every angle was covered. After all, there can be grey areas and arguments if you take my approach, especially in the bitter, at-all-costs race for victory that seems to happen in the final few turns! You can barely fault a player who wins well within the rules. But I can easily imagine that when designing these scenarios, the designer never considered that someone might just try to win with a single truck, or not attack at all etc.

In the introduction to the rules there are a few interesting comments, I think some of the claims are not entirely accurate, but it does say things to the effect that the rules are just a 'framework' and basically common sense. I would suggest that we also should use common sense in interpreting them as well. Quote: 'Above all, remember; you control the game and the rules are simply a logical framework for your use. Interestingly it also states: The forces in a given Situation may be unequal and one side may have a better chance of winning than the other, but it is primarily the skill of the individual player which determines the outcome of the game. Of course, one might argue that some give the 'other' no chance of winning, but still!

There are some interesting articles also on the imaginative strategist page (down the bottom of 'Panzer Class', Articles from Outposts). I'm not sure who the gentleman is, but T. F. McGrath makes a few interesting comments on what the intentions of the designers were, how they wished it to be interpreted as common sense etc. He feels that many of the rulings by 'the answer men of Avalon Hill' are against the intent of recreating historical battles. I think he might be referring to later clarifications of the rules in The General.

I guess I am just a firm defender of this game. It is far from perfect, I guess if a little more thought (and evidently a little more play testing) had been put in, we would not be having all these discussions!

Cheers!

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Wesley Williams
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I've been enjoying our playthrough of PL more, but this title holds a lot of nostalgia for me. Too bad it hasn't stood the test of time as much as some have.
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