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Subject: Sleep-Too powerful? rss

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Artifice Knight
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One observation during the game was that the sleep spell seemed a touch overpowered. Cheaper then most attack spells, a hit from a sleep wand could leave a creature completely out of the game, essentially dead-while high level creatures with armor might be able to survive being struck into consciousness, many level 1's may as well consider it a death sentence-the other player won't waste their time attacking a sleeping foe, and your own attacks risk killing your ally.

Anyone else feel the same way, or are we just handing the card incorrectly?
 
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David Jackman
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While it is rather powerful against weaker creatures, it doesnt seem like that is gamebreaking. All things said, there are a number of cards that can take low level creatures out of the game, essentially. That is sleeps one real niche.
 
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Dustin
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yeah i think it's off too, should really be some other way to end the effect.
 
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John Guytan
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All it takes is a Nullify enchantment on your creature. Also, it gives you incentive to get close enough to the Mage to cast Dissolve on that wand. Dissolve (at least 2) is really a must-have item in any spellbook, in my opinion. Keep in mind that creatures with Psychic Immunity can't be affected by Sleep.

Give your opponent something else to worry about, like moving out of range of your Mage or a creature with Ranged attacks.

If you're really worried about your big creature getting put to sleep, I suggest putting Nullify and Regrowth on it. That way, if your opponent goes for a second Sleep spell (having used up the Nullify), you can hit your big creature with a weak attack to wake it. Then, the Regrowth will kick in.
 
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Dustin
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the problem with having to have things no matter the build. is after a few sets this will become a ccg instead of what it uniquely offers. there should be some other way to get rid of sleep, than a must have card.
 
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Joel Eddy
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Well. The idea should be to have other counters beyond just Nullify and Nullify Enchantment, which I suspect we will get.

Like something along the line of Nullify Field: Any spell cast against or through "this" zone is nullified, removing the Nullify Field.

You might also have spell type resistances get added later that do multiple things. It's much like Counterspell in Magic. Ya, it's staple, but there are equivalent cards in other colors that aren't as all encompassing. I would expect those to appear in later sets.
 
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Brandon Bernard
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When you attack your own creature to wake it up:

1. Must you use all the attack dice in the attack chosen, or can you choose to roll less?

2. Must you cause damage to wake a creature, or can the attack be sucessful, deal zero damage on dice, and still wake the creature up?
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Thomas Leitner
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The answer to your second question is answered in the rulebook, pg. 43, "Sleep".

"If this creature receives any damage, remove Sleep and replace it with a Daze counter..."

The first question is harder, but I believe you must roll the base number of dice plus/minus any modifiers. I refer you to page 28 of the rulebook:

"Roll a number of dice equal to the final, modified attack value".

As the only modifiers listed are traits inherent to the attacker and the defender, I don't think you can choose to roll fewer dice.

Hope this helps.
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Chris Dieckmann
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You ought to be able to choose to roll less dice this will of course risk you rolling no damage at all. Think of it as aiming your attack to and pulling your punch.
 
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Captain Frisk
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I had some friends over this weekend to game, and I sat out while they played MW, one player with priestess, the other warlock, with the stock (rebalanced) books.

Both new players, so completely new to the game

The priestess threw sleep on her wand, and zapped the warlock (treated as lvl 6 creature, right?)

Based on his position, his nearest creature was 2 tiles away, and priestess had initiative next turn, so she would be able to get away from risk of a prepared "explode" next turn, and be able to put the monster.

The best we could figure out from the rules and various threads would be that the warlock would sleep until something damaged him, which was probably going to be 2 turns at least.

While the warlock didn't flip the table, he resigned on the spot, and the 2 players spent the next 30 minutes declaring MW to be the worst game of the weekend.

Did we do the rules wrong? How does the stock warlock counter a sleep wand other than "well you have to be prepared for it with lots of creatures to attack your own guys and wake them up"

 
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Maankin, Gent.
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
I had some friends over this weekend to game, and I sat out while they played MW, one player with priestess, the other warlock, with the stock (rebalanced) books.

Both new players, so completely new to the game

The priestess threw sleep on her wand, and zapped the warlock (treated as lvl 6 creature, right?)

Based on his position, his nearest creature was 2 tiles away, and priestess had initiative next turn, so she would be able to get away from risk of a prepared "explode" next turn, and be able to put the monster.

The best we could figure out from the rules and various threads would be that the warlock would sleep until something damaged him, which was probably going to be 2 turns at least.

While the warlock didn't flip the table, he resigned on the spot, and the 2 players spent the next 30 minutes declaring MW to be the worst game of the weekend.

Did we do the rules wrong? How does the stock warlock counter a sleep wand other than "well you have to be prepared for it with lots of creatures to attack your own guys and wake them up"


sleep targets a non-mage living creature
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Thomas Leitner
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Quote:

sleep targets a non-mage living creature


What he said . If Sleep could target mages, the game would devolve into an exercise to see which Mage can sleep which first. Ah well...I guarantee you that no one who plays this game hasn't misread and misplayed something.
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Captain Frisk
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Thanks for the help, I didn't look carefully at the card, we were trolling through the codex for the effect, which describes how incapacitated is limited on mages, but it didn't say that mages were immune to sleep.

Even so, it still went over pretty ugly that even if it didn't work on a mage, the cost to put someone to sleep (2xLevel) is substantially lower than the cost to cast ( > 2xLevel mana) + Cost to revive (wasting an action to punch + 1xLevel manaa)
 
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Joe Gamer
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Thanks for the help, I didn't look carefully at the card, we were trolling through the codex for the effect, which describes how incapacitated is limited on mages, but it didn't say that mages were immune to sleep.

Even so, it still went over pretty ugly that even if it didn't work on a mage, the cost to put someone to sleep (2xLevel) is substantially lower than the cost to cast ( > 2xLevel mana) + Cost to revive (wasting an action to punch + 1xLevel manaa)


I'm just wondering about the very last part of your post. You have to keep in mind that you only have to pay the removal cost if you're using an ability to remove the condition, such as the priestess's restore ability. If you attack a creature to wake it up you don't have to pay the 1xLevel mana removal cost. This goes for all conditions, not just sleep.
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Curt Carpenter
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Sorry to rez an old thread
Earl of Dukes wrote:
2. Must you cause damage to wake a creature, or can the attack be sucessful, deal zero damage on dice, and still wake the creature up?

Has this been discussed elsewhere since? Being able to choose to roll fewer dice seems completely thematic and reasonable from a gameplay perspective to me. Of course attacker retains all attributes (e.g. piercing), probably even required to keep stuff like melee+X, if any.
 
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Mark Turner
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Chrisxny wrote:
You ought to be able to choose to roll less dice this will of course risk you rolling no damage at all. Think of it as aiming your attack to and pulling your punch.


Is this definitely not allowed? ie, a weak attack rolling only some dice against your own creatures?
 
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James Myers
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MrMT wrote:
Chrisxny wrote:
You ought to be able to choose to roll less dice this will of course risk you rolling no damage at all. Think of it as aiming your attack to and pulling your punch.


Is this definitely not allowed? ie, a weak attack rolling only some dice against your own creatures?


Aye, you've always got to roll all your dice.
 
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Germany
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The main problem is not sleep but letting your opponent attach it to his wand and repeat it over and over. Thats why everyone dispells any mage/elemental wands that show up immediately because else you'll lose the duel. That's also the reason these two itmes show up in mid-late game when you assume your opponent has run out of dissolves or after he wasted his dissolves for unimportant equipment. And even if you face your opponent without dissolves you can use a Wand of Healing to remove sleep counters (from Druid vs. Necromancer) or the upcoming Clear Mind incantation that removes stun, daze and psychic counters and attachments.

There are always cards that counter other cards, you just beed to include them in your spell book.
 
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Mark Turner
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Shelfwear wrote:
The main problem is not sleep but letting your opponent attach it to his wand and repeat it over and over. Thats why everyone dispells any mage/elemental wands that show up immediately because else you'll lose the duel. That's also the reason these two itmes show up in mid-late game when you assume your opponent has run out of dissolves or after he wasted his dissolves for unimportant equipment. And even if you face your opponent without dissolves you can use a Wand of Healing to remove sleep counters (from Druid vs. Necromancer) or the upcoming Clear Mind incantation that removes stun, daze and psychic counters and attachments.

There are always cards that counter other cards, you just beed to include them in your spell book.

I'm new to all this... But isn't it possible to counter spell the dissolve, meaning you can pretty much ensure you get a wand imbued with sleep?
 
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Ivan Kidd
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It is possible to use Nullify or Reverse Magic to protect your Wand from being Dissolved. If my opponent has a face down enchant on themselves and I wish to Dissolve their wand, I would cast something unimportant on them first to fish out any such counterspells before going after my primary objective.
 
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Mark Turner
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Zub3ri wrote:
It is possible to use Nullify or Reverse Magic to protect your Wand from being Dissolved. If my opponent has a face down enchant on themselves and I wish to Dissolve their wand, I would cast something unimportant on them first to fish out any such counterspells before going after my primary objective.


This makes me suspect that it's quite common to see a wand come out alongside a couple of face down enchants, and for the back and forth to begin...

I am still mucking about in apprentice, but looking forward to getting more into this game (if I can fine people to play with! my son, who is almost 8, is enjoying learning it, but it will take him a while to understand everything I suspect).

Anyway, as a starter this has opened my eyes. I used sleep for the first time last night and realised how extremely powerful it was. A wand with sleep is a mighty weapon indeed.
 
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In one of my last games the opposing Warlock bound Force Push to his wand and started pushing everything through his own Wall of Fire. Again, the main problem was not the Force Push but the Wand.

Anyway, Mage Wars has a Rock-Paper-Scissors approach, there is always cards that trump other combos. Sleep + Wand wont work against Forcemaster, Necromancer or Earth Wizard as those usually dont use living creatures.


 
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To be fair here, you can only do it once per round, doing it means no full-action spells can be cast, and you're buring 6 mana because of the passage-attack fee.

If you can't use that time and mana deficit to destroy the wall or get run interference (or just get yourself out of range of a push through the wall), and your opponent really gets to do that over and over and over then your opponent is doing something else very right and it's not just the wand.

Same holds with any spell binding really. You could bind something to your wand, too, after all. That's what I love so much about this game--you don't have to wait to draw the card. Bind Dissolve or Dispel and you're in an interesting position--they have to waste one of their dissolves to stop you and if you contrive to get a use out of it the same turn you bind it you're ahead in the dissolve/dispel arms race.

Back to a sleep wand, it's powerful but not TOO powerful. They can put one of your creatures to sleep every turn. Put out high level creatures and they're spending themselves to death. Put out a bunch of low level creatures and you can swarm them. Armor up and arm yourself and they have to think twice about putting things to sleep instead of keeping their distance. Once more, if they're in a position to cast it again and again and again then you're in a bad matchup spellbook/mage-wise or they're doing something other than the sleep wand very very right.
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