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Subject: C&C: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender rss

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BrentS
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I haven't played yet and am just starting to get through the rules and FAQ. These are probably both fairly obvious and come under the general wisdom that if the rules don't say it, it isn't a rule. I find that porting knowledge between C&C games can sometimes be helpful but sometimes also misleading

1. Leader retreat - In C&C:A a targeted lone leader surviving the attack roll must perform a leader evasion (leaders don't technically retreat in C&C:A). I can't see that explicitly stated here so I'm guessing that's not the case in Samurai Battles, but just want to confirm. If I'm reading correctly the two situations where a leader is forced to retreat are if a unit is killed from under him or if he is a lone leader and one or more flags are rolled against him in combat (and I'm assuming here that he doesn't count as being attached to himself so can't ignore a flag as he would otherwise grant to a unit he was attached to). It obviously has major consequences in this game, where a leader retreat means loss of three H&F tokens or a potential loss of honour check, and a decision about committing seppuku.

2. One command card surrender - This one may seem self-evident but I never assume. In other C&C games, calculating Command usually includes the card you've just played. Is it safe to say, based on that precedent, that a player reduced to 2 Command cards doesn't have to surrender the game when he plays one of them in his order phase, thereby being left with one card in hand?

Thanks,

Brent.
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Todd Rewoldt
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
Probably need FAQ, etc. responses for both of these questions. I don't have faith in the rule book that a lone leader isn't intended to retreat after every close combat, but reading the rules seem to suggest that you have it correctly. Played five games so far, and the only time a lone leader was left in a position to be attacked, a flag was rolled...

With #2, I think the rules are explicit enough that a card plays counts as a command card "in possession" (from the rule book:"When the number of units to be ordered is not a fixed number, but instead the Command cards states 'For each Command card you have, including this one', the number of units and leaders a player may order is equal to the number of Command cards in the player's possession (including the Command card currently being played)." But, a more direct addressing of whether that is still the case for the "One Command card surrender" would be a good thing.
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Kent Reuber
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
Yes, leaders who survive their unit being eliminated must retreat. See the section in SB entitled "Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure" on p. 12. The who survives his unit being eliminated must retreat 1-3 hexes similar to C&C Ancients. Then he must either:

- Discard 3 Honor tokens for the retreat.
- Commit Seppuku, gaining 5 Honor tokens but losing a card permanently.
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David Millette
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
kentreuber wrote:
Yes, leaders who survive their unit being eliminated must retreat. See the section in SB entitled "Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure" on p. 12. The who survives his unit being eliminated must retreat 1-3 hexes similar to C&C Ancients. Then he must either:

- Discard 3 Honor tokens for the retreat.
- Commit Seppuku, gaining 5 Honor tokens but losing a card permanently.


Agreed, but the liklihood of a leader surviving beyond his unit is a whole different story. Many of my leaders seem to end up on the victory track of the opposing player before the actual unit does... Use your leaders with care in Samurai Battles.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
mille1212 wrote:


Use your leaders with care in Samurai Battles.


Yes, very true.
It is not wise to intentionally put a leader in peril.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
kentreuber wrote:
Yes, leaders who survive their unit being eliminated must retreat. See the section in SB entitled "Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure" on p. 12.


Kent, I initially assumed that just like in C&C:Ancients lone leaders targeted would automatically retreat - but there is the wording when talking about lone leaders that are targeted retreating, that they behave just like units (except retreating one to three hexes or committing Seppuku, etc), which seems to indicate that they would only retreat if a flag were rolled. Regardless, as Dave pointed out, won't often be that a leader is left alone to be targeted - still, unless I am just missing or misreading some of the rules, would like to get this clarified.
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David Millette
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
toddrew wrote:
kentreuber wrote:
Yes, leaders who survive their unit being eliminated must retreat. See the section in SB entitled "Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure" on p. 12.


Kent, I initially assumed that just like in C&C:Ancients lone leaders targeted would automatically retreat - but there is the wording when talking about lone leaders that are targeted retreating, that they behave just like units (except retreating one to three hexes or committing Seppuku, etc), which seems to indicate that they would only retreat if a flag were rolled. Regardless, as Dave pointed out, won't often be that a leader is left alone to be targeted - still, unless I am just missing or misreading some of the rules, would like to get this clarified.


The answer is actually found on the bottom of page 12, top of page 13 under the section entitled Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure. On the top of page 13 it states, "If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casualty check, must always retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku."
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Todd Rewoldt
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
Thanks, Dave - I was pretty sure I was doing too much micro-reading there, and it was mentioned somewhere else.
 
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BrentS
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
mille1212 wrote:


The answer is actually found on the bottom of page 12, top of page 13 under the section entitled Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure. On the top of page 13 it states, "If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casualty check, must always retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku."


Thanks, David. That may be the intention but I'm still not getting that clearly at all from the section you've referenced, which specifically discusses a leader's retreat when his unit is killed, not when he is attacked separately alone in the hex.

The bit about flags not affecting leaders is in the section on leader casualty checks when they are with units and in that context looks like it is referring to his mandatory 1-3 hex retreat if he survives the casualty check after his unit is eliminated, making the presence or absence of flags in the roll irrelevant.

In the following section on a leader alone in a hex being attacked with full battle dice (therefore not a leader casualty check) I can't see any clear reference that a leader who is alone when attacked must retreat if not killed , as they clearly do in C&C:A (where it is termed leader evasion, but fundamentally the same thing).

Again, this may be the intention, and it was my initial assumption coming over from Ancients and Napoleonics, but I feel it's still not clear as the rules are written.

Brent.

Sorry to muddy the waters again, Todd. I don't think you (or I) were micro-reading . If it doesn't say it, it's not in the rules until it's ruled.

Quote:
Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure
During a close combat, when a leader is with a unit and the unit loses one or more figures and the unit is not eliminated, the leader casualty check is made with 1 battle die. To hit the leader, a sword symbol must be rolled. If a sword symbol is not rolled, the leader will survive the casualty check and remainswith the unit.

When a leader is with a unit and all the figures in the unit are eliminated during a close combat attack leaving the leader alone in the hex, the leader casualty check is made with 1 battle die. To hit the leader, a sword symbol must be rolled. If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2 or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casulaty check, must always retreat 1,2 or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku.


Leader Alone In a Hex
When an enemy leader is alone in a hex, not with a unit when being attacked, the attacking unit determines the number of battle dice to roll as normal against the lone leader. One or more sword symbols rolled will score a hit and eliminate the leader.

 
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BrentS
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
toddrew wrote:


With #2, I think the rules are explicit enough that a card plays counts as a command card "in possession" (from the rule book:"When the number of units to be ordered is not a fixed number, but instead the Command cards states 'For each Command card you have, including this one', the number of units and leaders a player may order is equal to the number of Command cards in the player's possession (including the Command card currently being played)." But, a more direct addressing of whether that is still the case for the "One Command card surrender" would be a good thing.


Thanks, Todd. My gut feeling is that the section you quoted, although specifically applied to ordering units and not this particular case, does hold true for the surrender rule too.

Brent.

 
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David Millette
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
goshublue wrote:
mille1212 wrote:


The answer is actually found on the bottom of page 12, top of page 13 under the section entitled Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure. On the top of page 13 it states, "If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casualty check, must always retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku."


Thanks, David. That may be the intention but I'm still not getting that clearly at all from the section you've referenced, which specifically discusses a leader's retreat when his unit is killed, not when he is attacked separately alone in the hex.

The bit about flags not affecting leaders is in the section on leader casualty checks when they are with units and in that context looks like it is referring to his mandatory 1-3 hex retreat if he survives the casualty check after his unit is eliminated, making the presence or absence of flags in the roll irrelevant.

In the following section on a leader alone in a hex being attacked with full battle dice (therefore not a leader casualty check) I can't see any clear reference that a leader who is alone when attacked must retreat if not killed , as they clearly do in C&C:A (where it is termed leader evasion, but fundamentally the same thing).

Again, this may be the intention, and it was my initial assumption coming over from Ancients and Napoleonics, but I feel it's still not clear as the rules are written.

Brent.

Sorry to muddy the waters again, Todd. I don't think you (or I) were micro-reading :). If it doesn't say it, it's not in the rules until it's ruled.

Quote:
Close Combat Casualty Check Procedure
During a close combat, when a leader is with a unit and the unit loses one or more figures and the unit is not eliminated, the leader casualty check is made with 1 battle die. To hit the leader, a sword symbol must be rolled. If a sword symbol is not rolled, the leader will survive the casualty check and remainswith the unit.

When a leader is with a unit and all the figures in the unit are eliminated during a close combat attack leaving the leader alone in the hex, the leader casualty check is made with 1 battle die. To hit the leader, a sword symbol must be rolled. If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2 or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casulaty check, must always retreat 1,2 or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku.


Leader Alone In a Hex
When an enemy leader is alone in a hex, not with a unit when being attacked, the attacking unit determines the number of battle dice to roll as normal against the lone leader. One or more sword symbols rolled will score a hit and eliminate the leader.



I think (b)Leader Alone In a Hex is just trying to distinguish that when you attack a lone leader, the attacking unit determines the number of die to roll. It's not limited to one or two combat die like in other casualty situations.

If those die miss, then I think the directions in regards to close combat apply. Again, they are as follows:


"If the leader is not hit, the leader must retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes, or commit Seppuku. Flags rolled against a lone leader have no effect, a leader, if not eliminated on the casualty check, must always retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes or commit Seppuku."

It wouldn't make sense to me that in situations where the leader's unit was eliminated, flags have no effect and the leader "has" to retreat or commit seppuku, but in situations where he is alone, flags "do" have effect and he "does not" have to retreat unless flags are rolled.

I agree that this could have maybe been worded differently in terms of mentioning casualty check in one example and not mentioning it at all in the other. But, I think the safer interpretation is a lone leader must always retreat, or commit seppuku, if not killed unless something official to the contrary is put forth, especially when considering that other CC games like Ancients use the same protocol.
 
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BrentS
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Re: 2 Questions - Leader Retreat and 1 Command Card Surrender
mille1212 wrote:

I agree that this could have maybe been worded differently in terms of mentioning casualty check in one example and not mentioning it at all in the other. But, I think the safer interpretation is a lone leader must always retreat, or commit seppuku, if not killed unless something official to the contrary is put forth, especially when considering that other CC games like Ancients use the same protocol.


Thanks, David.

I'd also agree that it's easier to interpret it to work the way it does in other C&C games with leaders and that may very well be the intention here. In those games the evasion of a leader alone in a hex when attacked is very specifically and clearly ruled and because of the way it's (not) worded here, it immediately leaped out at me that this may not be the case here. There's a significant difference between a leader casualty check and a unit's combat roll and the the leader's response to both situations is not at all clearly ruled here, as it is in those other games.

There are numerous examples in this game alone that there are subtle differences between the systems that might be missed on a casual read through (1 die leader casualty check in a unit surviving a close combat roll, maximum of 2 flags ignored, all units being allowed to battle the turn they enter a forest hex) and there is some risk in transferring assumptions between games.

Brent.
 
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Richard Borg
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When a leader is with a unit and all the figures in the unit are eliminated, if the leader is not hit on the leader casualty check, the leader must either commit Seppuku or retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes. Any flags rolled during the combat have no effect against the leader. If the leader does retreat, it will cost three Honor and Fortune no matter if the leader's retreat is 1 hex or 2 hexes or 3 hexes.

When a leader is alone in a hex the attacking unit determines its normal number of dice to roll against the lone leader. To hit the leader one or more swords must be rolled. If the leader is not hit, the leader must either commit Seppuku or retreat 1, 2, or 3 hexes. Any flags rolled during the combat have no effect against the leader. If the leader does retreat, it will cost three Honor and Fortune.

Richard Borg
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BrentS
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All clear. Thanks Richard.

Brent.
 
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