Brian M
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Guess the question pretty much says it all. I liked the original (I'd say I loved it, except for General Voss and poor card layout/physical design), but absolutely hated Rook City. Dull heroes, pointlessly frustrating villains that didn't interact well with a lot of hero cards.

How does Infernal Relics compare? Is it even worth looking at given the above?
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Kenneth H
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I'm not sure how qualified I am to comment, since I enjoy pretty much everything about the game and expansions.

The two new heroes are both extremely good, but they both have a bit of a learning curve. The villains bring different challenges. On the whole, they are not as difficult as the Rook City villains.

Is that what you're asking? What is it you don't like about Voss?
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Yea, the Rook City heroes did kinda of suck in my opinion too, they're a bit one dimensional. I actually liked Spite because of the victims/safe house storyline. He was one villain I actually thought included a plot rather than just straight up combat. Never got around to fighting Plague Rat. With the other two villains (Matriarch and Organization) it seemed like you either got crushed instantly or you breezed through them based on if you had the right hero powers to counter what they threw at you.

As far as Infernal Relics, I reaaally like Nightmist. She's fun and kind of powerful in my opinion in that she can do a lot. Argent Adept is total support, and that's about it. He was awesome in a 5 player game because he could help out so much. As far as the villains, we only got to the one whose name I can't pronounce. She was fun too, but frustrating in that she kept healing up her limbs. We almost played the Enead, but I forbid it because I'm SOOO tired of having to reference mulitiple card effects within a game. The game really bogs down when you have to factor in countless effects ie "when the villain is dealt damage, he deals damage to this, but the damage is increased by that, and then you have to play another villain card immediately but, oh wait, now we have to resolve that new card which deals damages to the villain again and then....UGH"

So, to answer your question, if you like the game you'll probably get the expansions. They add more longevity and variety to the game by adding characters and environments. None of the expansions actually change the game, it's just more of the same. Sorry you felt like you got a bad bunch with Rook City.
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Oh yea, I forgot to comment on the poor card layout/design. I love the art. I love the flavor text. I love the large sized promo villain cards (they help out so much!).

But I hate, hate the fact that I have to scan the cards one by one looking for the words "at the start of the turn". Then I have to scan the cards one by one looking for the words "when you deal damage" or "when this card is dealt damage". Then I have to scan the cards one by one looking for the words "at the end of the turn". Then I have to do it all over again.

Wouldn't colored coded text boxes have been a good idea? Green for the start of the turn, red for the end of the turn, and maybe blue for conditional stuff? Or maybe a symbol or icon. Something small that wouldn't take up too much space on the card. I mean they used the H symbol and that worked. And Nightmist has her symbol and that worked. *Sigh* maybe in the NEXT enhanced edition.
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Is it even worth looking at given the above?

Yes, yes, yes. The guys at G2G have clearly learned a lot the last few years and it clearly shows in Infernal Relics. Here's what you can expect from the new expansion:

Heroes
Both Nightmist and Ardent Adept are brilliant heroes, especially when compared to Expatriate and Mr Fixer. And although I really enjoy Mr Fixer, he doesn't compare to the levels of the new heroes. Both of the heroes are powerful, but complex. This gives them a lot of reach as they will take some time to learn. Once they are mastered they bring a lot to the table. This is certainly an improvement over Expatriete and Mr Fixer, who are largely at the mercy of their draws and even mastered, didn't offer much to the table.

If possible, I'd pick up Unity as well, as she's BONKERS! She's easily my favorite hero and is crazy fun to play. Plus, her powers interact really well together in a unique way.

Villains
I was not disappointed with the rook city villains, I liked the challenge and I enjoy both Matriarch and Spite a lot. However, I understand your sentiment that they were frustrating and didn't interact well. This is not the case with the new villains. Although he's a promo, picking up Ambuscade is very valuable in this regard as he has a number of cards that are very unique. None of the new villains are as hard as the Matriarch or Organization, but they all bring something new to the table.

The Ennead are like an evil Superhero team. Very cool and tough, pretty much everything you'd imagine they would be. Akabusha (That's totally not spelled right) enjoys the environment deck and interacts with it a lot. Gloomweaver is the most "normal" of the new lot, but even he brings an alternate win condition to the board.

All of the new bosses can be nullified with some smart playing...but bad playing will get you punished.

Environments
The environments of Rook City were pretty brutal. The new environments feel very balanced. Used properly they will give you a huge boost, but not watched they can be brutal. They are also far more interesting than any of the previous environments.

The Tomb of Anubis environment is the creme de la creme of environments, it's, simply put, brilliant.

I hope that helps. I have been ranting to my friends about how good of an expansion this is, and I would highly recommend it.
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Brian M
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Is that what you're asking? What is it you don't like about Voss?

Mostly Forced Deployment. It's a card that essentially undoes huge amounts of what the heroes have done, and then hits them incredibly card with virtually no way to prevent it.

Quote:
I actually liked Spite because of the victims/safe house storyline.

I liked the concept of almost everything. It was the implementation I found lacking.

For the record, what I generally didn't like about Rook City was:

The heroes were repetitive. They each tended to use the same power over and over again, with very little cardplay or choice. Expatr...however they spelled it... is very reliant on drawing ammo to get to make more interesting attacks, but I went through entire games without ever seeing an ammo card!

Spite and Plague rat had no "minions", which makes multi-attack cards useless and removes decisions about what to attack. Several of the villanis had no ongoing cards, negating yet more hero cards. Several villains have "hurt you when you hurt them" mechanics, which generally dislike. It's a mechanic to be used sparingly as a temporary challenge, not as a central mechanic to insure you can' get too far ahead. The Organization also had the "bring back all the cards you bothered to defeat" effect. Despite being a royal pain, since several of the villains rely on continual low damage from a single source, a bit of damage reduction winds up being able to completely block them - they're too hard unless you have the right combo, and then they are too easy!

Hope that clarifies.
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StormKnight wrote:
The heroes were repetitive. They each tended to use the same power over and over again, with very little cardplay or choice. Expatr...however they spelled it... is very reliant on drawing ammo to get to make more interesting attacks, but I went through entire games without ever seeing an ammo card!

Not an issue with the new heroes - Nightmist's resource systems and one-shot emphasis ensure you can't just spam a single effect, and if you're not using a wide variety of songs for Argent Adept, you're wasting his potential.

StormKnight wrote:
Spite and Plague rat had no "minions", which makes multi-attack cards useless and removes decisions about what to attack. Several of the villanis had no ongoing cards, negating yet more hero cards. Several villains have "hurt you when you hurt them" mechanics, which generally dislike. It's a mechanic to be used sparingly as a temporary challenge, not as a central mechanic to insure you can' get too far ahead. The Organization also had the "bring back all the cards you bothered to defeat" effect. Despite being a royal pain, since several of the villains rely on continual low damage from a single source, a bit of damage reduction winds up being able to completely block them - they're too hard unless you have the right combo, and then they are too easy!

Hope that clarifies.

Of these, the only one I'd say is still around is the lack of villain ongoing cards. If you use Advanced difficulty, the Ennead ends up having the Organization/Matriarch problem of "have an autowin combo or lose", but the non-Advanced version of them is fine and actually pretty interesting.
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Well, this is all sounding pretty optimistic so far!

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If possible, I'd pick up Unity as well, as she's BONKERS!

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...picking up Ambuscade is very valuable in this regard as he has a number of cards that are very unique.

As a completely side topic, is actually feasible to "pick up" any of these promo items?
 
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StormKnight wrote:
As a completely side topic, is actually feasible to "pick up" any of these promo items?


Yes
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I haven't played the Ennead or Gloomweaver yet, but I definitely like the Infernal Relics heroes and villains so far.

Personally, I don't really like playing Spite or the Matriarch. However I feel much differently about Plague Rat and the Chairman, who are loads of fun. The Rat is infamous 'round here. Expatriette was a win for my gaming group, while Mr. Fixer has for the most part been shunned.

In comparison, the Infernal Relics villains (the 2 that I've played), heroes, and environments of Infernal Relic seem to be a little more replayable than Rook City and a lot more enjoyable. The heroes are funky but have pretty cool payoffs. The environments are cool, cool, cool.

All said, it probably depends how much you enjoy the base set and would keep playing it.
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Since we seem to be mostly in agreement about the base game and the Rook City expansion, there are a few things I think I should mention that bother me (even though I mostly like Infernal Relics):

1) The game seems to take longer than it used to. Argent Adept can set up ridiculously large combos that make his turn last longer than normal (including letting other heroes play cards in the middle of it), and some of the villains (Akash'bhuta and the Ennead) take quite some time to play.

2) There are a lot of villain one-shots now that play the top card of the villain deck when they finish resolving. Doesn't appeal to me personally.

3) In the past, the villains' "I Win" buttons usually didn't hurt so much if they came out early in the game - Dawn's nuke isn't bad if you haven't put many cards yet, and for all Forced Deployment's annoying undoing of progress, at least it couldn't swarm you at the start of the game. Nowadays, the "I Win" buttons seem to more often play a certain set of cards from the top of the villain deck, so they're no weaker Turn 1 than Turn 7. Not usually too big an issue, but in our first game against Apostate we had an unlucky first turn that pretty much single-handedly lost us the game:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
He started with a 3 HP Relic that plays the top card of the villain deck every time a hero draws a card, then from a one-shot was able to play a 12 HP Relic that redirects all damage aimed at Relics to itself and a 6 HP Relic that granted all Relics DR 2.

Again, I like Infernal Relics and would still recommend it, but in the interest of completeness I though I should mention those, since we seem to be of the same mind for the base game and first expansion.
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berkmarc wrote:

Personally, I don't really like playing Spite or the Matriarch. However I feel much differently about Plague Rat and the Chairman, who are loads of fun. The Rat is infamous 'round here. Expatriette was a win for my gaming group, while Mr. Fixer has for the most part been shunned.

Mr. Fixer actually has a strong matchup against Plague Rat, what with not taking damage from Infection (with Jack Handle or Driving Mantis), not dealing damage to other Heroes when Infected (Jack Handle, sometimes Grease Monkey Fist), and redirecting the irreducible damage Plague Rat inflicts at the end of the turn back to Plague Rat (Driving Mantis).

He's also pretty strong against Apostate.

Expatriette, amusingly enough, has all the pieces to deal with Forced Deployment (if she can draw them, which is her big problem).
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StormKnight wrote:

As a completely side topic, is actually feasible to "pick up" any of these promo items?


Unity and Ambuscade can be purchased from >G's online store: http://sentinelsofthemultiverse.com/store/category/promos

They will also likely be available (at least for some time) from future conventions. They are not being shipped to distributors.
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Stormknight -- were you the person who'd posted a while back about 'challenging' versus 'hard' games?

I thought that was quite insightful, but I also thought that some of the things that were listed as hard (i.e. the likelihood of winning is low and there's nothing you can do about it) are actually at least somewhat tractable with advanced planning -- things like keeping AoE attacks available in case Forced Deployment comes out, or using deck control to keep certain cards from coming out.

Mind you, I generally agree with the sentiment that cards that cause my work to be undone are generally not just hard or challenging but also un-fun. This was a serious drawback I saw w/ Apostate in the early playtesting. I don't feel it as much now, but I don't recall if that was because Apostate has changed, or if I've just gotten more familiar with what Apostate does.

Someone above talked about how Apostate can have killer starts where lots of relics come out early and make things very difficult (be it hard or challenging is left to another discussion). I agree, but can say from at least one experience that such a difficult start can be overcome -- we had an amazing game where we came back from having about eight relics on the table to win.

I am not only a huge fan of SotM, but personal friends with the creators, so it is hard for me to be critical. That being said, I have not enjoyed the darkness of the Rook City decks as much as the core game or Infernal Relics. Although there are things I like about every deck, I tend to shy away from the Rook City ones, particularly the environment decks (Rook City, Pike), actually. I used to be more critical of Expatriette and Mr. Fixer, but I've come around on both of them after enjoying them be quite effective multiple times.

Now, Infernal Relics? Infernal Relics (and Unity) is (are) awesome! I'm not sure I'm in love with Nightmist or Apostate (or Ambuscade) and many of the decks can take a while to play with all the stuff that's going on but a lot of the decks are truly my favorites. I particularly love Unity. And I really like both of the environments. The Tomb of Anubis has Anubis himself! And trials! And treasures! The realm of discord is incredibly swingy, but so much fun. Explosive Bubbles! Time Flies!
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Stormknight -- were you the person who'd posted a while back about 'challenging' versus 'hard' games?

Yep, that was me.

Quote:
I thought that was quite insightful, but I also thought that some of the things that were listed as hard (i.e. the likelihood of winning is low and there's nothing you can do about it) are actually at least somewhat tractable with advanced planning -- things like keeping AoE attacks available in case Forced Deployment comes out, or using deck control to keep certain cards from coming out.

My big problem with Forced Deployment isn't actually dealing with the goons afterwards (though when you've got both the "All minions take 1 less damage" things and the advanced ability that has the same effect, that's kind of nuts to deal with!), but the huge amounts of damage the heroes get hit with before they have a chance to fight back due to all the minions popping out. Deck control can counter that, but there are so few of those that it's quite possible you'll never draw any.

Quote:
Mr. Fixer actually has a strong matchup against Plague Rat...

Mr. Fixer can be good, but we find he usually winds up just finding a good tool for the current villain and using it over and over and over again. Boring!

All this discussion led us to pull out Sentinels again and have a rockin' game vs. Baron Blade (adv) last night. He got to 14 cards in the discard before we beat stage 1 - I don't think we've ever been that close to lunar destruction before. This has me enthused to see if I can tweak the Rook City villains to make them a bit more fun.
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StormKnight wrote:

My big problem with Forced Deployment isn't actually dealing with the goons afterwards (though when you've got both the "All minions take 1 less damage" things and the advanced ability that has the same effect, that's kind of nuts to deal with!), but the huge amounts of damage the heroes get hit with before they have a chance to fight back due to all the minions popping out. Deck control can counter that, but there are so few of those that it's quite possible you'll never draw any.

Well, if you destroy Forced Deployment early it gives you at least part of the Hero Round to take them out. And in the last game I played against Voss, Expatriette killed all but three (Soldier, Soldier, Guard) of them with Hairtrigger Reflexes the moment they entered play.
 
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Well, if you destroy Forced Deployment early it gives you at least part of the Hero Round to take them out.

Requires not only a particular card, but in the right order.

For the record, this conversation got us playing Sentinels again, and remembering what I do like about it. I'm now tweaking the Rook City villains to our taste one at a time. I think I've got the Matriarch just about right. Still scary swarms (which actually get to attack sometimes now!) but a lot less reactive damage.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
Requires not only a particular card, but in the right order.


For what it's worth, it's imperative to have someone who can kill ongoing cards take the first turn against Voss. (It's not a bad idea against a good many villains, actually.) Tachyon and Wraith are traditionally good choices - they draw a lot of cards and can keep ongoing destruction handy.

Other ways to deal with it. Wraith, Visionary, Nightmist can deck-manipulate them away. Ground Pound, Grease Gun, or Heroic Interception cancel the damage. Armored heroes can negate a ton of it, especially Lead From the Front/Fortitude. (Bonus points if there's a Counterpoint Bulwark playing!) Into the Stratosphere means you don't have to deal with it for another two turns. (KILL VOSS NOW!) End of Days kills Forced Deployment AND all of the things it brings out, at the cost of your stuff.

Keep in mind, though, the very best thing about Voss is that he doesn't kill your stuff. (Dreadnought excluded, but that's one at a time, and marked for death anyway.) The heroes are allowed to be all they can be against him, and it is regularly awesome. This in mind, without the major damage influx from a Forced Deployment or two, the heroes really wouldn't have too many problems with the guy.

StormKnight wrote:
For the record, this conversation got us playing Sentinels again, and remembering what I do like about it. I'm now tweaking the Rook City villains to our taste one at a time. I think I've got the Matriarch just about right. Still scary swarms (which actually get to attack sometimes now!) but a lot less reactive damage.


Hell yeah! The guys who made the game are totally behind anyone changing the game to make it more fun for them.

I have always derived enjoyment from figuring out strategies that will serve in defeating difficult foes within the rules. I may eventually relent on one house rule, though - allowing Rook City Wraith to put a card back on top of the environment deck. It's really hard to justify using that power otherwise.
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Other ways to deal with it.

Like I said. A very few cards that you might not have in hand or in the right order, especially if prefer playing with random heroes. (If we wanted to pick heroes, we'd probably have Legacy, Wraith and Visionary basically every game - what fun would that be?)

I do confess though that we haven't played with Voss and Fanatic since learning about the (somewhat counter-intuitive) ruling that End of Days will destroy all the minions as well as the Forced Deployment.

Quote:
This in mind, without the major damage influx from a Forced Deployment or two, the heroes really wouldn't have too many problems with the guy.

Part of the problem. Forced Deployment sucks, but if you have one of the few ways to completely stop it, or it simply comes up at a good (for the heroes) time, it takes way too punch punch away from Voss.

None of the top co-ops use a "everything you've beaten comes back at once" mechanic. There's a reason for that.

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Hell yeah! The guys who made the game are totally behind anyone changing the game to make it more fun for them.

You know, even if they pathologically hated people who changed the game, it wouldn't stop me.

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I have always derived enjoyment from figuring out strategies that will serve in defeating difficult foes within the rules.

Been there, done that. It was boring and more based on hoping for the right draw than anything we did.

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...allowing Rook City Wraith to put a card back on top of the environment deck. It's really hard to justify using that power otherwise.

Yeah, that power sucks as is. Granted, Wraith has so many awesome powers from her gear that it hardly matters, but it's boring to have a power that you're never going to bother to use.
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Ah, right. I remember why I wasn't going to get into this conversation.

StormKnight wrote:
Like I said. A very few cards that you might not have in hand or in the right order, especially if prefer playing with random heroes. (If we wanted to pick heroes, we'd probably have Legacy, Wraith and Visionary basically every game - what fun would that be?)


I play random every game, and every character can help deal with it, even if they can't prevent it. Hero order is an important consideration.

StormKnight wrote:
I do confess though that we haven't played with Voss and Fanatic since learning about the (somewhat counter-intuitive) ruling that End of Days will destroy all the minions as well as the Forced Deployment.


I don't find it all that counterintuitive, really, but the main deterrent is that it kills your stuff too. So just as often, you don't want to do it. But it's a desperation option if you just can't take the damage.

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Been there, done that. It was boring and more based on hoping for the right draw than anything we did.


I really don't find the game all about hoping for favorable draws. We just disagree on this.

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Granted, Wraith has so many awesome powers from her gear that it hardly matters, but it's boring to have a power that you're never going to bother to use.


We agree on that, though.
 
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Ah, right. I remember why I wasn't going to get into this conversation.

No, this probably isn't a good conversation for anyone.

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I don't find it all that counterintuitive, really...

Show me any other game in which an instant "destroy all cards in play" effect also destroys cards coming out later in the turn.

I won't bother arguing with the rest of what you said since it's pointless. Just understand that I disagree with most of it.
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StormKnight wrote:


Show me any other game in which an instant "destroy all cards in play" effect also destroys cards coming out later in the turn.

It's not an instant effect. It's an ongoing effect. The card even says "Ongoing".

As for the Rook City Wraith, personally I think her ability is decent as is. She's a good pick anywhere there are Environment cards you want to avoid and Environment cards you want to play, especially if there's extra benefit to playing them out of turn, as with Rook City or Wagner Mars Base.
 
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It's not an instant effect. It's an ongoing effect. The card even says "Ongoing".

The "destroy all cards in play" takes effect, then is gone. That's an instant effect. The card is ongoing just because it has to sit in play for a little bit before it "explodes".

Sentinels "timing" rules are just very different from most games - hence, counter-intuitive.

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She's a good pick anywhere there are Environment cards you want to avoid and Environment cards you want to play...

Problem is, since you have to discard or play the card, you're just as likely to cycle past a card that's annoying but not really bad and get to the cards you really want to avoid faster as you are to discard the cards you really want to avoid.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
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Ah, right. I remember why I wasn't going to get into this conversation.

No, this probably isn't a good conversation for anyone.

How about it! Shut up already

You know I'm kidding, right? Right? Actually I'm always interested by the points/counterpoints that people bring up regarding SotM.
 
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Forced Deployment is not that bad in that:

1) minions have only 3 health
2) you have a round to knock it out early
3) you can prepare for it by bringing heroes with abilities that destroy ongoings
4) you can prepare for it by saving up any cards that deal with ongoings


That said, it does seem to be the most complained about card in the entire game.
 
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