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Subject: Several obstacles rss

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Martin Söderberg
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Say if you fly through an asteroid during your turn and end up on top of another asteroid at the end of the movement, do you take one or two dice of damage? I dont think the rules adress several obstacles in one turn.
 
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Dave Graffam
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I'd roll for damage twice.
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Ed Sagritalo
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I believe you take damage if your base goes through any obstacles during the flight and at the end of the flight. So 2 times in this case. And if you are crazy enough to fly a large arc through a dense asteroid field (we usually don't place asteroids that close that this would occur), then you deserve what you get whistle
 
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Chris McDonald
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I disagree. Here's the rule:

Quote:
When a ship executes a maneuver in which either
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:

1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the
“Perform Action” step.

2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).


It says roll a single attack die if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token. Just one die. It doesn't say roll an attack die for every obstacle token it overlaps.
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Guido Gloor
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cfmcdonald wrote:
I disagree. Here's the rule:

Quote:
When a ship executes a maneuver in which either
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:

1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the
“Perform Action” step.

2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).


It says roll a single attack die if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token. Just one die. It doesn't say roll an attack die for every obstacle token it overlaps.

It also talks of "an" obstacle token. Multiple tokens are not handled by those rules, so they'd have to be invoked multiple times for multiple obstacle tokens.
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Thomas Leitner
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cfmcdonald wrote:
I disagree. Here's the rule:

Quote:
When a ship executes a maneuver in which either
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:

1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the
“Perform Action” step.

2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).


It says roll a single attack die if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token. Just one die. It doesn't say roll an attack die for every obstacle token it overlaps.


I would take that to mean one die per event, not collectively.
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O B
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Funny I was reading the intent of the rule to be similar to the rule for overlapping ships (and also for overlapping the satellites in the 3rd mission) - in other words, it only matters if you *END* your movement overlapping.

I'd be happy to believe we've been playing it wrong, but I'm not sure...
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Eric B.
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MDJD wrote:
cfmcdonald wrote:
I disagree. Here's the rule:

Quote:
When a ship executes a maneuver in which either
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:

1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the
“Perform Action” step.

2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).


It says roll a single attack die if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token. Just one die. It doesn't say roll an attack die for every obstacle token it overlaps.


I would take that to mean one die per event, not collectively.



It's one die, as written. The antecedent ["If you overlap an obstacle token"] is satisfied whether you overlap one or more obstacles and it says nothing of duplicating the consequent ["Skip the perform action step and roll an attack die"]. That's how I interpret it as a logic instructor. If the rules intend for it to be one die per obstacle overlapped, they don't say that and would require a disambiguating errata.
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Greg
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Why would you only roll 1 die for passing through and/or landing on two obstacles? Hitting 2 asteroids is the same as hitting 1? That totally makes maneuvering through an asteroid field a lot easier and takes some of the planning and maneuverability out of the game when there are several obstacles in play.

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Dave Graffam
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I believe that the conditions are met twice ("an obstacle"), and should be resolved twice.

If the collisions had occurred on separate rounds, they would have been resolved individually. This could just as easily apply to flying through 4 asteroids. It seems unfair to reward risky maneuvers by making them immune to collisions with all obstacles beyond the first.

On a practical level, I'd quit playing with the opponent who insisted they could get away with moving through an obstacle without checking for damage.

And it makes some obstacles irrelevant in this one situation. Why introduce an inconsistency?
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Fergus Hadley
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Now we just need rules for shooting meteorites so you can fly through them unharmed.
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O B
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adorablerocket wrote:
Funny I was reading the intent of the rule to be similar to the rule for overlapping ships (and also for overlapping the satellites in the 3rd mission) - in other words, it only matters if you *END* your movement overlapping.

I'd be happy to believe we've been playing it wrong, but I'm not sure...


Yup, checked the rules, it's pretty clear I was wrong!

I don't know how I missed the bit about overlapping the template! :face palm:
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Terence Lee
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It would make sense that its for each obstacle, otherwise if you know you're going to hit one anyway, you could just go full blast and barrel through 3 or 4 obstacles without any consequence.
 
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Eric B.
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DagobahDave wrote:
I believe that the conditions are met twice ("an obstacle"), and should be resolved twice.

If the collisions had occurred on separate rounds, they would have been resolved individually. This could just as easily apply to flying through 4 asteroids. It seems unfair to reward risky maneuvers by making them immune to collisions with all obstacles beyond the first.


I don't mean this in a snarky way or anything, but what you believe and what the rules technically say aren't necessarily the same thing, though. Think of this example:

IF you own a dog, THEN you need a fenced yard.

The above certainly doesn't say that if you own three dogs you need to own three separate fenced in yards. Any satisfying of the antecedent requires the consequent to be met, but nothing in the above statement explicates that for every time the antecedent happens the consequent needs to be replicated.


Now, certainly some examples of hypotheticals imply that for each separate antecedent the consequent is replicated. Example:

WHEN you are pregnant [THEN] you should get an ultrasound.

Certainly, if you get a pregnant a second time then you should get a second ultrasound, according to the above.


But the way the rules are written the antecedent is WHEN you execute a maneuver that overlaps an obstacle, THEN follow these steps:

The antecedent can only happen once each turn. A ship only executes one maneuver per turn, and therefore can only have the consequent (following steps (1) and (2)) occur once each turn.


If the rules said "WHEN(ever) an obstacle overlaps with a ship or its base, THEN follow (1) and (2)" it would mean that for every obstacle overlapped, you roll potential damage. But it seems clear to me that the authors did not write it that way and presumably did not intend to write it that way, or they would have been more explicit and phrased it quite differently.



DagobahDave wrote:

On a practical level, I'd quit playing with the opponent who insisted they could get away with moving through an obstacle without checking for damage.


Well, that's pretty much like an "I'm taking my ball and going home!" response, especially since the rules say you only roll one die.

I could see it making sense either way, and personally I'd have no issues if the rules said you rolled once for every obstacle (though it would be incredibly rare for a ship to move through more than one obstacle a turn, especially if using tournament rules with only six asteroids and a required >1 Range distance between each). Nevertheless, as written the rules state you roll once.

Perhaps the designers made it such for balance issues? Maybe we'll see things like Tractor Beams on Slave-1 or something that allow for moving ships even more than Ion Cannon and they didn't want people whipping opponent ships through asteroids for multiple damage? I have no idea, but I'm sure the designers made the decision they did for a reason. On the off chance the intention of the rule was supposed to be one roll per obstacle, than I'm sure a simple errata to the rules will rectify once the first errata/FAQ comes out.
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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cfmcdonald wrote:
I disagree. Here's the rule:

Quote:
When a ship executes a maneuver in which either
the maneuver template or the ship’s base physically
overlaps an obstacle token, follow these steps:

1. Execute the maneuver as normal, but skip the
“Perform Action” step.

2. The player rolls one attack die. The ship then
suffers any damage or critical damage rolled
(see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).


It says roll a single attack die if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token. Just one die. It doesn't say roll an attack die for every obstacle token it overlaps.


I'm inclined to agree with cfmcdonald. It says when "a maneuver in which either the template or the stand overlaps an obstacle token..."

Since there are no altitude rules in the game, I can accept that a craft is attempting to loop over or under an obstacle that's in its path. The longer arc through an obstacle field increases the likelihood of rolling the die for damage, not the likelihood for rolling more dice.

But a clarification from FFG would appreciated. Perhaps they did mean that for each obstacle crossed, a die is rolled.
 
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Guido Gloor
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RogueThirteen wrote:
I could see it making sense either way, and personally I'd have no issues if the rules said you rolled once for every obstacle (though it would be incredibly rare for a ship to move through more than one obstacle a turn, especially if using tournament rules with only six asteroids and a required >1 Range distance between each). Nevertheless, as written the rules state you roll once.

I must admit that I was wrong and you're right, yeah. From a strictly logical point of view (and that's the one we should be adopting), there's nothing that says to roll more than one die for more than one obstacle in the current body of rules.
 
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brian
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Once again I can see both sides of the argument. Once again I think it needs to be clarified by an FAQ.

I fall into the camp that each asteroid causes one roll of the die. The rules are just trying to be clear that whether you fly over it or land on it, you roll a die. In a previous incarnation, you only rolled a die if you landed on it. But that really didn't present a challenge. So the shadow of the template also caused a die to be hit.

I believe the intent of the rule is that for EACH obstacle, you check to see if you land on or fly over it and roll a die. The point is that each one causes a challenge and each one should force you to roll a die. If you get misses, which is the best odds, you successfully navigated.

Theme shouldn't be used to make rulings. Because just as one can argue that ships are flying in 3d space and a ship can fly over it, likewise, the asteroids aren't in 2d planes so can be above and below just as much. The abstracted intent is that if you cross over them, they are considered to be at your exact level/altitude/whatever at that very moment.

Two obstacles = 2 dice rolls. Fly better next time.
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O B
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Two obstacles = 2 dice rolls. Fly better next time.


Rules are ambiguous, but I like this interpretation best too.
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Greg
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Once again I can see both sides of the argument. Once again I think it needs to be clarified by an FAQ.

I fall into the camp that each asteroid causes one roll of the die. The rules are just trying to be clear that whether you fly over it or land on it, you roll a die. In a previous incarnation, you only rolled a die if you landed on it. But that really didn't present a challenge. So the shadow of the template also caused a die to be hit.

I believe the intent of the rule is that for EACH obstacle, you check to see if you land on or fly over it and roll a die. The point is that each one causes a challenge and each one should force you to roll a die. If you get misses, which is the best odds, you successfully navigated.

Theme shouldn't be used to make rulings. Because just as one can argue that ships are flying in 3d space and a ship can fly over it, likewise, the asteroids aren't in 2d planes so can be above and below just as much. The abstracted intent is that if you cross over them, they are considered to be at your exact level/altitude/whatever at that very moment.

Two obstacles = 2 dice rolls. Fly better next time.



I mentioned this to TJ, Steve and Sean tonight and we agreed that we'd do the 2 dice for hitting 2 obstacles. So safe to say, aside from the 4 of us that played tonight, you Brian and the others in the group, would play this way until an official ruling otherwise came from FFG.

That said, I would say that for tournament purposes, FFG needs to clarify this ruling so that people don't have conflicting interpretations during a tourney.
 
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Jeremy Burke
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Wait, don't you only roll if you END your turn on a ship or asteroid?
 
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brian
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jburke98 wrote:
Wait, don't you only roll if you END your turn on a ship or asteroid?

No. If you land on s hip, you actually back up until you are not on the ship and lose your action. If you are still touching that ship come combat, you can't fire on them.

When you fly over (not land) on an asteroid you roll for damage. If you land on it, not only do you roll for damage, you also lose your combat completely.
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Eric B.
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adorablerocket wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

Two obstacles = 2 dice rolls. Fly better next time.


Rules are ambiguous, but I like this interpretation best too.


Well, technically the rules aren't ambiguous. The words and logical operators used specifically state one die is rolled per executed maneuver, and executing maneuvers are something ships only do once a turn (see my above post).

Now, there is concern that perhaps the designers meant/intended for there to be one roll for each obstacle (maybe this is this case, but given that there are dozens of simple clear ways to phrase this, I can only suspect that the designers didn't intend for this to be the rule). But starting to interpret things based on what we think the designers meant (or should have meant) but didn't actually say is certainly risking error.


I agree an official FAQ (or errata, if necessary) would be nice, since this has caused a lot of conclusion. Personally, I'd prefer a one-die-per-obstacle rule myself, but we'll have to wait to see if they errata it.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
jburke98 wrote:
Wait, don't you only roll if you END your turn on a ship or asteroid?

No. If you land on s hip, you actually back up until you are not on the ship and lose your action. If you are still touching that ship come combat, you can't fire on them.

When you fly over (not land) on an asteroid you roll for damage. If you land on it, not only do you roll for damage, you also lose your combat completely.


Do you also roll on your next turn as well when you begin your movement on the asteroid?

Second question, when rolling the attack die for damage from asteroid, it can cause both regular and critical damage correct?

Thanks.
 
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Eric B.
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Today's FAQ does indeed confirm that this should be played as the rulebook (unambiguously) stated.

You only roll once (one die) for obstacle overlap during maneuver execution, even if the ship overlapped multiple obstacles:

Q: After a ship moves through or overlaps
more than one obstacle, does the owner
roll an attack die for each of these
obstacles?

A: No. He rolls only one attack die regardless of the
number of obstacle tokens his ship moves through
or overlaps.


Formal Logic does indeed work!
 
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