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Eclipse: Rise of the Ancients» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Conifold field ship parts (3hull/-2electricity) rss

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Vilho K
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Do you guys see the same problem with these as i do?

Even if the shard hull (ancient tech) goes usually in use, im not super exited about these.

think about adding one of these in your ship: it has now 4 HP as there is always one HP by default. HOW is this any better than improved hull? as we know, plasmacannons which are very typical weapon in every setup, do even amount of damage. if ship has one conifold or one improved hull, it still takes only 2 hits from plasmacannons to destroy it. and only one from antimatter. yes, it does matter against any ion-based weapons, but not too many players use those in late-game.

And. That sucker uses 2 power. one does not sipmly have 2 of those. as it requires serious powersupply.

Well, someone with tachyon source and some good targeting systems can fit nice plasmacruiser with two conifold fields. I should not make posts as i always question myself while writing it.

So maybe it requires more specialized fitting to get advantage from these, but if you are using only one hull, improved hull is better than these things, as power is limited and it still takes 2 plasmashots to kill.
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Mathue Faulkner
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It's a Rare Tech, and it's not meant to be better than Improved Hull. In our games, it was often a consolation prize for those who didn't get the Improved Hull (especially if PMs came into the picture). And as you said, it's better if you have enough Power to place 2 of them.

If it replaced Improved Hull, then I think it would be a problem. But as a situational Rare Tech, I think it works just fine...
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Riku Riekkinen
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Techs also provide points & discounts. The ability put it in any tech track can be quite a big bonus also.
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Gleb Semenjuk
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Just a day or so ago another topic was raised, about how overpowered they are. Opinions differ.
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stu ma
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I played a lot of games and if advanced hull was not drawn then some players had trouble going to war. So this might help that issue via adding another option to build better protected ships.
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Michael Evans
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As a rare tech, there's only one in the bag, I believe, so the help it gives to players in going to war is negligible. You can accomplish quite a bit early on with -1 shields, plasma cannons, or computers anyway, esp. vs. ancients. Lately I haven't even been getting Improved Hull.

Conifold Field is still better than improved hull against ion-type weapons, so it IS good against ancients and non-plasma/antimatter ships early on.

However, I think the main reason the ship part exists is as one of the several "anti-missile" techs... and you really need two of these to get the effect. If you strap two of these onto your ship it will take 4 missile hits to destroy you, rather than 3 (with improved hull).

That being said, I am not too keen on the tech either! I would have preferred Missiles were changed rather than devoting so many of the new rare techs to countering missiles, which seems more like a band-aid to me.
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Daniel Hammond
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Mike_Evans wrote:

That being said, I am not too keen on the tech either! I would have preferred Missiles were changed rather than devoting so many of the new rare techs to countering missiles, which seems more like a band-aid to me.


Missiles are just a scratch that don't even need a band-aid. If they are causing you to bleed out then you probably need to play with Nerf missiles. devil
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Mathue Faulkner
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Mike_Evans wrote:

That being said, I am not too keen on the tech either! I would have preferred Missiles were changed rather than devoting so many of the new rare techs to countering missiles, which seems more like a band-aid to me.

shake
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Michael Evans
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I think it's interesting that both replies assumed that I think something is wrong with missiles. I noted that if they were going to "fix" something, I'd rather they fix the problem at the source, instead of using a band-aid. You know what happens when you "assume," don't you?

If "missiles are a scratch that don't need a band-aid," then why are there (as of the playtest anyway) two rare techs devoted exclusively to countering missiles, and two more that are debatably there for the same reason? That's a pretty large percentage of the rare techs. Seems an awful lot like a band-aid to me.

And Mr. Faulkner? I'm impressed... I've never seen somebody manage to convey douchebaggery so efficiently.

You know, the last two replies are exactly why I almost never post on BGG.
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Mathue Faulkner
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Mike_Evans wrote:

And Mr. Faulkner? I'm impressed... I've never seen somebody manage to convey douchebaggery so efficiently.

You know, the last two replies are exactly why I almost never post on BGG.

At the time, I was posting from my phone and the emoticon seemed to be the easiest way to post.

And both of the replies were from people who have playtested the expansion. From the games I've played, I hardly think of those Rare Techs as any type of "bandaid" (which implies that you think PMs should be fixed). In all honesty, the Rare Techs just make the PMs more interesting. I'm not of the crowd that thinks PMs are OP, but I do think that the battles involving PMs are a bit anti-climactic without the expansion. The Rare Techs, however, make the entire game much more interesting than a 'fix' would.

Edit: It may not have been my phone, but either way, the "douchebaggery" promoting emoticon was posted in haste. Even though you may not have intended to imply that PMs need a fix, it is a hot discussion that I've grown a bit tired of. I apologize for any offense.

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Loren Cadelinia
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Mike_Evans wrote:

If "missiles are a scratch that don't need a band-aid," then why are there (as of the playtest anyway) two rare techs devoted exclusively to countering missiles, and two more that are debatably there for the same reason? That's a pretty large percentage of the rare techs. Seems an awful lot like a band-aid to me.


All of the expansion material is modular. The developers made everything so players can pick and choose how they want to play, (warps, techs, ancients) if players want to use them. Among them are more missile counter measures. This not only appeases those who feel missiles are OP, but also provides new and interesting ways to combat missiles, even if they feel missiles are just fine.
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Jelle Kaptijn
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Gleb wrote:
Just a day or so ago another topic was raised, about how overpowered they are. Opinions differ.

Could you give me a link of that topic? I can't find it.
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Gleb Semenjuk
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Cirdan14 wrote:
Gleb wrote:
Just a day or so ago another topic was raised, about how overpowered they are. Opinions differ.

Could you give me a link of that topic? I can't find it.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10137280#10137280
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Daniel Hammond
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Mike_Evans wrote:

If "missiles are a scratch that don't need a band-aid," then why are there (as of the playtest anyway) two rare techs devoted exclusively to countering missiles, and two more that are debatably there for the same reason? That's a pretty large percentage of the rare techs. Seems an awful lot like a band-aid to me.


I call them options. All rare techs give options, some deal with missiles. As you say 2 deal directly with missiles. 3 of the techs have hull points, but you didn't say that instead of putting bandaids on hulls the designer should have just fix hulls. What you wrote clearly implied that you feel there is something wrong with Missiles, which is OK a minority of new players feel that way.

The assumption made was you felt that the designer added some rare techs to "fix" missiles. I have talked with the design team and they post quite a bit and it is clear to me that, like me and a vast majority of experienced players, they don't feel like there is anything wrong at all with missiles. All the rare tech provides new options and changes how the game plays.

I believe I have respectfully answered your questions. I hope that in the future you grow more comfortable posting. I have said some stupid things on BGG, but that is OK. I do try to avoid words like douchebaggery though.
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Jeremy Steward
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It is obvious that the general theme for the rare techs is powerful yet situational. There is no difference here.

Basically with this tech, you have to use 2, other wise there isn't much point (since a ship with 3 hull or 2 hull are destroyed in the same # of orange and red hits.) With 2 conifold field you can take 3 orange hits in 2 sockets (or 2 CF & 1 IH to take 2 red hits) which is pretty good but since that costs 4 energy, you need tachyon source (or better). So it can be good in the right situation, but not every situation.
 
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Michael Evans
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I used the word douchebaggery because I called it what it was. But M. Faulkner was big enough to apologize, and so I accept his apology with no hard feelings.

Since everybody likes to drop their experience with the game and its designers: For the record, I am being conservative when I say that I have close to 30 games of Eclipse under my belt, I playtested the expansion, AND I have spoken with a member of the design team about the expansion. I have the emails and pdf's to prove the latter two claims, you'll have to take my word for it on the first. This is partly in response to Mr. Hammond's implication that I am a new player. Now that we've all whipped it out and measured...

Mr. Hammond, my thoughts about your comparison of the hull points on techs to my suggesting that the missile techs are a band-aid: Interceptor Bays are clearly there to improve interceptors, I don't think it says anything about hull "balance" in the game. Sentient Hull is an interesting combination of hull and computers, and Conifold Field is certainly a rich man's Improved Hull. While I am not nearly as infatuated with Improved Hull as some of my fellow players are in my game group, Improved Hull IS a pretty awesome tech. Without speaking to the author directly, I think one COULD argue that these techs are there to give more players access to good hull techs, since I.Hull does get snapped up pretty frequently. Not a fix, necessarily, but more of a good thing? Sure.

The difference is that the anti-missile techs exist PURELY to counter missiles. Ion Missiles are also such a perfect counter to low-hull missile boats that I am inclined to lump them in the same category. the added initiative means you can pop those ships like balloons before they can fire off their payload. You guys wanna call it "extra options," fine. Potato, Potahto. But I am inclined to believe that even if the designers think there's nothing wrong with missiles, those two techs could easily be a nod to the part of the community that thinks missiles are OP. And if they were going to do that much, I'd rather they have changed the Missiles. For the record, I love Ion Missiles and what they do. I'm kind of underwhelmed by other two, though, because they are so niche. Not crazy about the Neutron Absorber either, for the same reason.

For the record, I will happily play with missiles, rules-as-written. I know how to use them well, and I have experience fighting against them. That being said, I think their raw power does tend to push certain strategies to the forefront more often than I like, making for a somewhat repetitive/boring play experience, and have played around with simple variants, mostly for the benefit of others in my game group. This is partly because I love designing variants and quasi-expansions.
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Daniel Hammond
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Quote:
That being said, I am not too keen on the tech either! I would have preferred Missiles were changed rather than devoting so many of the new rare techs to countering missiles, which seems more like a band-aid to me.


I guess my main point is that most players don't think missiles need to be fixed and less so at the "experienced" level of playing (at least according to my poll). That it would have been difficult to add new techs without having some sort of effect on missiles/missile builds and to have intentionally avoided adding options for missiles would have upset the minority of players that feel they are an issue.

My second point is while it doesn't upset me in the least, being crass while trying to make a point (especially on forums) probably doesn't help convince people you have an intelligent point to make.

I think the game has well-earned its spot as a top-10 game, as is. I don't find missiles to be an issue at all in the games I play; just another factor to account for (your mileage may very, but you don't need to measure it for me).
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Michael Evans
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Got it... Being pretentious and/or condescending is ok but being crass is not. Duly noted, thanks for the tip.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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With the antimatter splitter, I'll take every hull point I can get.
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Daniel Hammond
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Mike_Evans wrote:
Got it... Being pretentious and/or condescending is ok but being crass is not. Duly noted, thanks for the tip.


My apologies if trying to engage you in intelligent conversation was pretentious and/or condescending.

Example of pretentiousness: Anyone who has played more than 20 games and thinks missiles are broken must be playing with 5 year-olds with the inability to beat them.

Example of condescension: When your top 5 game knocks Eclipse out of the top 5 feel free to give advice to the designer.

Just wanted to show you I know how to be a jerk, but if you re-read what I wrote above, that was not my intent.

Also just so others know neither of those examples reflect my true opinions.
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Peter O
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I think of conifold field as a different flavor of IH. How good it is ends up being dependent upon your other techs, unlike IH which can be slotted in anywhere. On the dread, you essentially need 3 IH to add 6 hp to your ship. With this, you need 2 fields and an additional source to get the same result. This is much worse when your source is nuclear, but after any source upgrade this pulls you out ahead overall. I'd rather have the flexibility of IH for sure. But this does a reasonable job when you dont have IH and in certain situations is superior to IH. It makes you think harder which is nice in an expansion rare tech.
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Michael Evans
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Example of pretentious condescension: Explaining the definitions of two words the person clearly already knows. You may think you're being polite, but what you've managed to be is an arrogant cloud of erudition that rains on people. News Flash! Putting people down is rude no matter what veneer you put over it.

You claim I'm being uncouth while you're trying to engage in intelligent conversation. If you were really paying attention, though, you might notice that we HAVE had a problem-free discourse about the topic on hand. The problems stem from me pushing back at both overt and subtle bullying I see here on this thread specifically, and boardgamegeek in general.

Ive come to expect some intellectual posturing from people on forums that discuss mentally stimulating things like board games. I suppose I can put up with that much. So stop talking down to me, and stop telling me how to write my posts, and we'll get along fine otherwise. Deal?
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Mike_Evans wrote:

Ive come to expect some intellectual posturing from people on forums that discuss mentally stimulating things like board games. I suppose I can put up with that much. So stop talking down to me, and stop telling me how to write my posts, and we'll get along fine otherwise. Deal?


I am all about being respectful of other people and their opinions, maybe if you can single out some of my quotes that were talking down to you we could clear up any misunderstanding. I feel we are getting closer.
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Michael Evans
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You mean besides giving me a lesson on the definitions of the words condescending and pretentious? Ha! Ok...

Pretension: Name-dropping your relationship with the designers and your experience playtesting the expansion. Using some highly unscientific poll you created as definitive proof that anti-Missile people are in the minority. Assuming that I am a "noob." Obvious distaste for a comment (whipping it out) that was meant to be funny. How déclassé of me! shake

Condescension: Getting on my case for using the word "douchebag" (even though the target of my insult actually apologized for acting like one). Giving me the "pro tip" that being "crass" won't impress anybody. Implying that I must be a "noob."

Call me hypersensitive if you want, but all the behavior above discourages people from joining the discussion. I see it more often than not on these forums, and it drives me crazy. You are not the worst offender, not by a long shot, but you keep coming back for more...
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Michael Evans
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Case in friggin' point about people here. This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/865548/favorite-openings...
 
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