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Subject: Two nit picks about card rulings rss

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Anthony Reynolds
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We got our first game in tonight and I really enjoy this game. I love the feel of planing your turns out and building towards a good card interaction engine. However 2 things in the rules about the cards struck me as a little unintuitive...

First, The Yjang's Forgotten Vase should read on the card that it only reacts to power cards summoned from your hand. It specifies this in the rulebook, but just based on the text of the card any seasoned card flopper will assume that cards like Divine Chalice will set this thing off. Divine Chalice tells me I can summon a card for free, YFV goes off "When I summon a card." Sounds like a match right?

The other thing that doesn't flow for me is Glutton Cauldron. This card has 2 effects, both proceeded by the gear symbol that indicates that the card has to be "tapped" to use the effect. And, the rules are pretty explicit in stating that cards that have 2 activated effects can't use them both in the same turn, like Tree of Light for example. So, why does Glutton Cauldrons second activated effect happen automatically when the 7th energy has been stored on it as per the rulebook. The way the card is laid out you should use its first effect to place the 7th energy on the Cauldron and should have to wait until your next turn to activate the second effect.

Neither of these concerns are game breaking in any way. just odd and ,as I said, a little unintuitive. I just wanted to see what others think and if this is a common feeling maybe we can see this changed in a future reprint. I could just be crazy though... =P

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Brian Gee
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I agree, these exceptions are a bit disappointing in an otherwise very consistent and streamlined ruleset. Another that bothered me (at least how it is implemented on BGA) is that the Transmute bonus does not apply to Potion of Life, but the Purse of Io does combine with Potion of Life.

My guess regarding the Gluttonous Cauldron is that it may have been tweaked later in the design process. It is a relatively weak card, and needing to wait until the 8th turn to trigger it rather than the 7th would probably make it weaker, so they may have changed how it worked to boost it a bit. This is just speculation though. A similar case could be made regarding the Vase and Chalice, the interaction may have proven too powerful in testing, and was tweaked later?
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Martin Klein
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KnagrocK wrote:
The other thing that doesn't flow for me is Glutton Cauldron. This card has 2 effects, both proceeded by the gear symbol that indicates that the card has to be "tapped" to use the effect. And, the rules are pretty explicit in stating that cards that have 2 activated effects can't use them both in the same turn, like Tree of Light for example. So, why does Glutton Cauldrons second activated effect happen automatically when the 7th energy has been stored on it as per the rulebook. The way the card is laid out you should use its first effect to place the 7th energy on the Cauldron and should have to wait until your next turn to activate the second effect.


What? Thanks for pointing that out! I totally missed this and have definetly played it wrong yesterday! That's very unintuitive.
 
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Brian M
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What? Thanks for pointing that out! I totally missed this and have definetly played it wrong yesterday! That's very unintuitive.

Hmm, I'm not sure you can really call playing the card as written "wrong". This seems to be changes that should probably be pointed out as errata in the rulebook.
 
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Anthony Reynolds
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StormKnight wrote:
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What? Thanks for pointing that out! I totally missed this and have definetly played it wrong yesterday! That's very unintuitive.

Hmm, I'm not sure you can really call playing the card as written "wrong". This seems to be changes that should probably be pointed out as errata in the rulebook.


The "changes" are pointed out in the rulebook.



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Brian Brokaw
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Thanks for pointing those out! I have no clue how I'm going to remember them...

While we are "complaining", I really dislike the Crystal track and the Summon tracks. Too easy to lose track of values, especially with MONSTER dice getting rolled on the table!
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Anthony Reynolds
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Thanks for pointing those out! I have no clue how I'm going to remember them...

While we are "complaining", I really dislike the Crystal track and the Summon tracks. Too easy to lose track of values, especially with MONSTER dice getting rolled on the table!


Although I do not "dislike" them, I can see using a double dial tracker for each player instead of the Crystal Track. Such as the one from the Lord of the Rings LCG by FFG. I would just designate one side of the tracker as 1-99 and when you break 100 Crystals flip it to the 100s side and keep going. We never had more than 200 Crystals before the end game scoring at which point the Crystal Tracker is kind of unnecessary. If you could add a third dial that goes from 0 to 15 on the top of the dial tracker and use it for the Summon Track that would solve all your problems. I like the player boards though. Maybe just replace the cubes with something that is a little less likely to slide around when jarred.

I think if you wanted to use a dial tracker in place of the Crystal Tracker you may find the Kill-O-Meter for Munchkin a little more useful since the front and back are different.



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Brian M
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KnagrocK wrote:
The "changes" are pointed out in the rulebook.

Somewhere other than the card glossary?

The glossary isn't what I'd call "pointed out" at all. Many people probably won't even look at it except to look up a card if questions arise. Many more people who do read it won't keep all 50 cards in mind when they go to play and immediately recognize a card that doesn't match up with the description. And some who do won't remember to remind the new players in the game that there are two cards that need to be treated differently.

Tha's why I think they should be explicitly pointed out as errata.

I would probably play both of these cards as written. Too much trouble to explain otherwise to new players.
 
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Anthony Reynolds
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StormKnight wrote:
KnagrocK wrote:
The "changes" are pointed out in the rulebook.

Somewhere other than the card glossary?

The glossary isn't what I'd call "pointed out" at all. Many people probably won't even look at it except to look up a card if questions arise. Many more people who do read it won't keep all 50 cards in mind when they go to play and immediately recognize a card that doesn't match up with the description. And some who do won't remember to remind the new players in the game that there are two cards that need to be treated differently.

Tha's why I think they should be explicitly pointed out as errata.

I would probably play both of these cards as written. Too much trouble to explain otherwise to new players.


It's your game, play it however you want. If a game this young shipped with an errata section in the rulebook I would be very shocked. Unless it was an FFG game, that would be a good thing IMHO.

I am surprised you don't feel that clarifications about how the cards are supposed to work should be in the card glossary. Makes sense to me, this being a card driven game. Perhaps they should have included a slip of paper that had post print changes on it, or a sticker on the front of the box... =P

I strive to play my games the way the designer intended them to be played. More often than not that means that at least some small nuance of a game has to be altered. Two small clarifications about two specific cards isn't that big of a deal to me. I don't think I will have trouble remembering how they are supposed to work, and my entourage shouldn't have any trouble in this regard either. I also don't think any ones experience would be diminished if they decided to play the cards the way they are written. In this game particularly, it's not what the cards do individually but how well you can make them work together that matters anyway.

Game on!




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Pete Lane
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Thanks for pointing those out! I have no clue how I'm going to remember them...

While we are "complaining", I really dislike the Crystal track and the Summon tracks. Too easy to lose track of values, especially with MONSTER dice getting rolled on the table!


Or play with a Lazy Susan!

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Brian M
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Quote:
I am surprised you don't feel that clarifications about how the cards are supposed to work should be in the card glossary.

This isn't a clarification. It's a complete change that contradicts what's acutally written on the card.

Quote:
I strive to play my games the way the designer intended them to be played.

In this case, I might rather play as "intended" (though technically we have no way of knowing which version is correct!), but I hate the idea of having to explain/remember "oh, these two cards don't really do what they say".

If I have to keep track of errata to cards, I generally just won't bring a game to a game group.
 
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Anthony Reynolds
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
I am surprised you don't feel that clarifications about how the cards are supposed to work should be in the card glossary.

This isn't a clarification. It's a complete change that contradicts what's acutally written on the card.

Quote:
I strive to play my games the way the designer intended them to be played.

In this case, I might rather play as "intended" (though technically we have no way of knowing which version is correct!), but I hate the idea of having to explain/remember "oh, these two cards don't really do what they say".

If I have to keep track of errata, I generally just won't bring a game to a game group.


If it was a complete change I would agree with you, but this is more of an * on the cards effects.

The cards ability didn't go from "Deal 5 damage" to "Draw 2 cards." They just CLARIFIED the intent of the cards use.

All you have to remember is that Yjang's Forgotten Vase only goes off when you summon from your hand, and that the second effect of Glutton Cauldron auto triggers when you add the 7th energy. That's hardly any change at all... In the case of the Glutton Cauldron the only real change is the tiny symbol next to the second effect should be the constant ability symbol instead of the gear/activated symbol.

When you have been playing games, especially CCGs, as long as we have you will get used to this kind of thing.

You missed the most important part of my post though. Just play the game the way you want to. As long as your group is cool with that nothing else matters. Having fun is the whole point of gaming. At least for us it is.

Game on sir!

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Brian M
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They just CLARIFIED the intent of the cards use.

If the glossary wasn't around, no one playing the card would ever play it the way the glossary describes. That makes it more than a clarification.

And I don't know why we should assume the glossary is the one to follow - I've seen games that haven't matched up between cards and clarifications before, and it's not always the card that's wrong. (Heck, the last one I saw, the designers announced that BOTH the card and the rules were wrong!)

Quote:
When you have been playing games, especially CCGs, as long as we have you will get used to this kind of thing.

When you have been playing as many different games I have (including CCGs), you will discover you don't have the memory to keep track of the card differences on all of them with months in between plays.

Or maybe it's "when you get as old as I am, you won't have the memory".
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Anthony Reynolds
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StormKnight wrote:
If the glossary wasn't around, no one playing the card would ever play it the way the glossary describes. That makes it more than a clarification.

And I don't know why we should assume the glossary is the one to follow - I've seen games that haven't matched up between cards and clarifications before, and it's not always the card that's wrong. (Heck, the last one I saw, the designers announced that BOTH the card and the rules were wrong!)


And if no one read the rules you wouldn't be playing the game as described... The "Glossary" is part of the rulebook. About half of it in fact. why would you just omit it? The section you keep calling the glossary is titled in the rulebook "List of cards and CLARIFICATIONS." It's only purpose is to tell you how the cards are supposed to work. So, yes I am assuming that the glossary is the correct way to play the cards. Not only because they don't change the way the cards really function, but that they give more detail about the effects and functions of the cards where the space for rules on the cards is limited.

Again, you are more than welcome to ignore the clarifications. I would not let them spoil my ability to enjoy the game. If you really can't remember these two simple clarifications and you feel cheated by the "changes" then just make a note and put it in the box to remind yourself, or just remove these cards from the game.

You really seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill here.


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Steve Walker
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Quote:

Or maybe it's "when you get as old as I am, you won't have the memory".


No I think that is directly linked to the amount of alcohol consumed whilst playing any games whistle
 
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Brian M
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You really seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Most of this mountain is coming from a bizarre argument over what should be a simply factual statement.


Quote:
Not only because they don't change the way the cards really function

On the card, activating the cauldron to add a token and activating it to release all the tokens and gain 15 crystal are two different actions and cannot be taken in the same turn. That is completely clear from the card.

In the card list, activating the cauldron to add a 7th token immediately releases all the tokens and gains you 15 crystal. That is completely clear from the card list. That is not the same is what is written on the card, so if you play with the card list version, you are changing the way the card functions.

This shouldn't be causing debate!
 
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Lee Fisher
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
You really seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Most of this mountain is coming from a bizarre argument over what should be a simply factual statement.


Quote:
Not only because they don't change the way the cards really function

On the card, activating the cauldron to add a token and activating it to release all the tokens and gain 15 crystal are two different actions and cannot be taken in the same turn. That is completely clear from the card.

In the card list, activating the cauldron to add a 7th token immediately releases all the tokens and gains you 15 crystal. That is completely clear from the card list. That is not the same is what is written on the card, so if you play with the card list version, you are changing the way the card functions.

This shouldn't be causing debate!


Yes, the card should be erratted.
 
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Brian M
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Ok, regarding Yjang's Forgotten Vase. Having looked through the card list in more detail, "when a card comes into play" always only counts cards from played from a player's hand. So Yjang's isn't an exception to a general rule - it's just covered by a general rule that is never clearly explained as such in the rules.

So I hadn't just been playing that card wrong - I'd been playing every effect like that wrong!
 
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Anthony Reynolds
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StormKnight wrote:
KnagrocK wrote:
Not only because they don't change the way the cards really function

On the card, activating the cauldron to add a token and activating it to release all the tokens and gain 15 crystal are two different actions and cannot be taken in the same turn. That is completely clear from the card.

In the card list, activating the cauldron to add a 7th token immediately releases all the tokens and gains you 15 crystal. That is completely clear from the card list. That is not the same is what is written on the card, so if you play with the card list version, you are changing the way the card functions.

This shouldn't be causing debate!


Okay... The entire reason I started this thread was to point out this discrepancy so that it may be fixed in the future. Go back and read rather than just take small snip-its of my posts and try to continue this "Debate."

The only things I have tried several times now to point out to you is that this game is less than 1 month old and you are venomously expressing frustration over there not being errata for it. Give it time and make whatever adjustment, or not, that you want so that you can continue to enjoy the game until they decide what to do about it.


 
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Brian Gee
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StormKnight wrote:
This shouldn't be causing debate!


While I completely agree with your assessment of the two different ways the Cauldron could function, I don't think this was the root issue of the debate. The debate seemed to be more about the difference between an errata and the included card glossary. While different in name, a card glossary does seem like an ideal place to locate errata about a card...
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Nick Jordan
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StormKnight wrote:
Ok, regarding Yjang's Forgotten Vase. Having looked through the card list in more detail, "when a card comes into play" always only counts cards from played from a player's hand. So Yjang's isn't an exception to a general rule - it's just covered by a general rule that is never clearly explained as such in the rules.


I have this same frustration as the OP about this game, where the Clarifications for these cards is not actually a clarification, but completely contradicts the card text. Not a big deal for me, but it really hangs up everyone I teach the game to.

I just wanted to point out that "when a card comes into play" does not only always trigger if you play a card from your hand. The rulebook says this, and then in the very next sentence, contradicts it by saying the card summoned by Potion of Dreams (2 Air cost, Sacrifice it and discard all energy in your reserve to summon a power card from your hand for free.)does not trigger Yjang's Forgotten Vase.

Great game, but I just don't see the value in these confusing "clarifications".
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Brian Gee
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Perhaps this might be helpful to some of you, but when I explain the game, specifically relating to Yang's Vase, I just explain that it does not trigger if you "cheat" the card into play somehow, meaning you play it in some way other than the normal summoning procedure (Crystal Orb, Potion of Dreams, Divine Chalice). This is easier to understand and remember.
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Matthew McFarland
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So, I just picked this up and have been looking through the forums, but this whole thread has me a little confused. Let me preface this by saying I have the second printing with the revised rulebook and errata'd cards, but I didn't think that Glutton Cauldron was one of those.

First, and this is definitely part of the revised rules, there's an added note on page 7 that cards put into play for free have not been Summoned. This is just a reinforcement for the earlier statement that a summoning cost must be paid in order to summon a card (which is in the original rules), but at least makes it more concrete. Since cards like Divine Chalice say "put into play for free" there's no confusion on Yjang's Forgotten Vase now.

For Glutton Cauldron, mine has an Activation effect for the energy add, followed by a Permanent effect for the sacrifice part. Is this different than earlier printings? I thought there were only two errata'd cards.

In any case, sorry to open old wounds, but I just wanted to say these have been fixed in the newer printings.
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Anthony Reynolds
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Eyefink wrote:
So, I just picked this up and have been looking through the forums, but this whole thread has me a little confused. Let me preface this by saying I have the second printing with the revised rulebook and errata'd cards, but I didn't think that Glutton Cauldron was one of those.

First, and this is definitely part of the revised rules, there's an added note on page 7 that cards put into play for free have not been Summoned. This is just a reinforcement for the earlier statement that a summoning cost must be paid in order to summon a card (which is in the original rules), but at least makes it more concrete. Since cards like Divine Chalice say "put into play for free" there's no confusion on Yjang's Forgotten Vase now.

For Glutton Cauldron, mine has an Activation effect for the energy add, followed by a Permanent effect for the sacrifice part. Is this different than earlier printings? I thought there were only two errata'd cards.

In any case, sorry to open old wounds, but I just wanted to say these have been fixed in the newer printings.


Thank you for the information sir!

 
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