Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Level 7 [Escape]» Forums » Rules

Subject: how to determine which enemies are activated? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tim Taylor
United States
under surveillance
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Read the rules many times, watched the tutorial video, and sat down to play. I didn't even get through one single turn.

Here's my problem:

Page 8 shows the three parts of a player's turn and the order in which these parts must be performed -- Draw, Move & Actions, and finally Event. It is specifically stated that triggering events is the very last part of a player's turn. OK, got it.

On page 10 the rules explain that to attack an enemy, that enemy must be active.

So how do enemies activate? I can see only two ways of activating enemies --

1) Page 13. At the very end of a player turn the event card might activate enemies. However, this occurs after an attack would have been made (the last part of a player turn).

2) Page 10. By failing an attack against an enemy, all enemies in the room are activated. But I would have had to been able to attack in the first place when no enemies were active...

So I just don't see how enemies can ever be attacked!

Are activations persistent? If enemies activate at the very end of player 1's turn, are they active in player 2's turn? Are they still active when player 1's turn comes around again?

There are no "active enemy" markers in the game, so this seems unlikely.

I have not looked at the scenario book because I don't want to spoil the surprise. Are there scenarios where all enemies are active?

Can someone please tell me how enemies can become active during a player's turn, and not at the very end of it (after the chance to attack has passed). Please include a page reference.

Thanks for any help you can provide. I would like to be able to play this game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Francesco Neri
Italy
Livorno
Italy
flag msg tools
badge
Francesco Neri
Avatar
mbmbmb
you should read "active enemy" as "not stunned enemy".... that's all.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Taylor
United States
under surveillance
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So you're saying "active" does not mean "activated"?!?

Wow. Just wow.

Where is the word "active" defined in the rules? How do you know "active" means "non-stunned"? Please provide a page number reference.

The rules clearly define the meaning of "activated" and make no mention of "active" that I can see. How is the adjective "active" not meant to imply "activated", an adjective with extremely similar meaning in English?

If that's true, this is what I call a "rules mine" or "rules bomb" -- a simple poor choice of words that can blow up a rules set through misinterpretation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Francesco Neri
Italy
Livorno
Italy
flag msg tools
badge
Francesco Neri
Avatar
mbmbmb
I reply with what the designer wrote in another post:

Page 15 of the rule book under Enemy Recovery, "Do not consider a stunned enemy active for any reason." So active means standing up.

About the rest i'm not the right person to quibble about english language.... my english is not so hight.
The only thing that i can say is that your language have not too many worlds like italian have... infact i always don't undestand when the world "you" refer to single person or to several people...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Taylor
United States
under surveillance
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Page 15 of the rule book under Enemy Recovery, "Do not consider a stunned enemy active for any reason."


Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, this sentence isn't really defining "active". It says that all stunned enemies are not active.

It does not logically follow that therefore all non-stunned enemies are active.

I've written to PP and when they give me an official ruling I'll post it in this thread.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Spencer Myers
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Herr Niemand wrote:
Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Page 15 of the rule book under Enemy Recovery, "Do not consider a stunned enemy active for any reason."



Unfortunately, this sentence isn't really defining "active". It says that all stunned enemies are not active.

It does not logically follow that therefore all non-stunned enemies are active.

I've written to PP and when they give me an official ruling I'll post it in this thread.



Actually that quote Francesco provided was from the designer himself in another thread.

Basically a Guard/Clone already on the map is considered to be an "active" target for the player to attack, unless it had been stunned previously and is currently lying on its side.

Which is different from an enemy "activating" and taking a turn during Phase 3 on an Event Card.

Perhaps another way to think of "active" is "legitimate": all non-stunned guards/clones are legitmate targets for a player to attack.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Z
Australia
Rockhampton
QLD
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Active and activated may have the same root but they are two words with different meanings.

The designers probably specifically chose the word "active" in the context rather than activated because it is a different word and it has a different meaning (and the meaning they wanted).

Activated means "to be in the state of being put into a state of action". Enemies are activated and do their actions.

Active means "to be in a state with the capacity for action". Active enemies are able to do their actions when they are activated (i.e. not stunned or otherwise out of action).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Taylor
United States
under surveillance
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Those meanings are very similar. One indicates ongoing potentiality and the other might but doesn't have to. These two words are almost synonyms.

If the rules writer had meant for "active" to mean "non-stunned" then why not just use "non-stunned" instead of introducing a new term that is not defined (although its negation is defined)?

There's no need for this kind of word-play in rules sets.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric T
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have been struggling with this same question. It says in the rulebook that when an enemy activates it takes only ONE action...Attack, move, or recover.

The enemy attacks if it is in the room with a player. If there are no valid attacks then it attempts to move based on the move criteria, and if it has been stunned it attempts to stand up based on the stunned rules.

Based on the activation rules (using the event cards) it seems that the activation is NOT persistent. This took me a little while to wrap my head around but this is now I looked at it.

Each move is a very small moment in time..perhaps even seconds. I enter a room with a guard. During the first few seconds I may have an opportunity to move and hide (I assume I have entered quietly and the guard has his back to me)

I then have an option to do one of the challenge moves in order to leave the room. If I fail, the guard activates because he has seen me and will then follow the activation rules listed. I can also choose to do nothing and as long as the event card does not activate the guard I am ok. I run the risk that the next player might activate the guard with an event card but that is a risk I choose to take if I stay in the room.

At the beginning of my next turn, a few "seconds" later I have to make a challenge choice..to outwit, Bull rush, or Attack. One of these challenge choices will allow me to leave the room or fail and make the guard attack me.

Each room is set up this way. Enter, make a challenge choice, deal with results of success or failure, hope the guard doesn't activate if I do nothing, and then do the next turn. The chances of an event card not having an activation is pretty small. I felt like I was in each room 20-30 seconds and each turn took 5-10 seconds (of game time, not real time)

Assuming each move is a very small amount of time seems to make sense to me and helped me get through a few rounds in scenario one.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to try and explain a move sequence. I obviously don't know the meaning of succinct shake
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B. LaMont Holbrook
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel this is probably the best explanation I've seen to answer the question. I agree there is some ambiguity in the rules, and they are not well organized to find a rule you know you've come across before. But I love the game. We are going to use the digi-cube timer next time to ramp up the intensity and force quicker decisions!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric T
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the game as well. My frustrations are the same. Searching the rulebook looking for the one line rule clarification that I just saw a second ago when I was searching for another rule !

Grrrr..... I am trying to put everything down in a cheat sheet but my organization isn't any better so far
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quibles of language usage aside, the rulebook seems pretty clear in each specific section what is what--not that it's easy to cross reference. "Activating" an enemy is something players do in the third stage of their turn which causes an enemy to attack, move or recover. An "active" enemy is an enemy that can take actions (i.e. not stunned). It's confusing if you just read the disparate parts, but the rulebook as a whole explains itself well enough, though I agree it was an unfortunate choice of words and something that probably just slipped under the radar. The turn summary has a few clarifications as well.

I know this was already answered, but wanted to throw my two cents in.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
old spirit
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
the true horror of the game is the rule book. Important rules are spread through-out the book. It reminds me of early books on computer programming: if this then do this, if that then do that, etc. I've started my cheatsheets and found that if you separate each type of player's (human, guard, clone, hybrid - i haven't gotten to Cronos) rules then it gets much easier.

I think a great survival- horror game is there but the rule book makes it harder to get to it. Or, maybe the clones had something to do with the rule book.whistle
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Skolo
Netherlands
R`dam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
any chance that you upload it into the file section?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.