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Subject: Need Clarification on the Backer Levels rss

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Jenny Nguyen
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Hi. I am trying to back your game and it seems to me that your backer levels are, at first glance, slightly confusing. I am after 2 copies of the game with all promos, expansions and any stretch rewards, a goat, moose and yacht. Am I right in thinking that the $260 level (add international shipping and any possible future stretch goal additional costs on top of the freebie ones) is what I'm after?

I think what initially befuddled me is why anyone would want to back at the $60 level for only 1 of 2 promos...or only the expansion but no promos. And then the term 'ELITE upgrade' kept cropping up, but it's not nearly as elite as a package that includes everything, and a bell and a whistle laugh.

Perhaps I am alone in thinking that the backer levels could be worded better. Or maybe I've misread the entire page. But anyway, there it is.
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Jose Negron

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I got the same impression about the levels. I don't think it's a good idea to seperate promos and stretch goals like they did. People don't usually kickstart projects past a basic level unless they :

1 - get the game (tier 1)
2 - get the game + stretch goals (tier 2)
3 - get the game + stretch goals (tier 3)
4 - add other non-game promos to tier 3 (tier 4)

etc etc
I want to back this game but I don't like the pledge levels at all.
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Hank Panethiere
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I agree with both of you 100%

I posted the following to their facebook page...

"Too many tiers...absurd that you have to spend so much to get all the rewards. Insulting."

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but they kindly responded with the following reply trying to explain the logic...

"Hi Hank Panethiere there are a lot of tiers to accommodate different budgets and wants/needs of the backers - sorry about all those (also had to account for multiple copies, retailers etc) - at the $49 early bird you get the game at the best cost plus its awesome in its own right w/o the promos. We allowed multiple options for the backers as some want it all and some don't. The Elite level does give extra bonuses on top of receiving all the rewards - we're looking to see if we can even add more to the Elite level. One thing we did was set all the extra perks at very low intervals (only 5k apart) and offering 16 REWARDS levels quite a bit! Other projects usually have a 10-20k spread for a reward - we reduced that to give back more to Elite backers. Thanks!"
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Anders Pedersen
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Soo... - $50 for the base game alone or $130 if I want all extras?
They might do stretch rewards at small intervals, but those prices are way too greedy, IMHO. gulp
Unless I misunderstood something...
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Jose Negron

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I read through all the stretch goals for $65 everyone level. Here's my analysis on the promo items (not including custom artwork, the plastic stands, the carrying tote, a t-shirt which has nothing to do with the game, and the dice bag which for $65 should be included in the base game in the first place). Take this as only an opinion and in no way, shape, or form am I telling anyone to pledge or not.

Everyone

promo cards/items

below 50k
1 castle, 2 spells

50k+
2 heroes, 4 upgraded dice, 4 dark force, extra dice, 1 boss, 1 mini expansion, 4 peasants, 4 champions

Elite
below 50k
2 castles, 1 boss card, 1 event card, 4 spells (2 of which are undetermined),

50k+
2 heroes, 8 upgraded dice (which is really just an extra set in case you lose the dice. This is a waste of a promo just dont lose your dice), another extra set of dice (how many times are we going to lose them that we need ANOTHER extra), 1 boss, 1 mini expansion, 4 peasants and 1 peasant boss, 4 champions

IMO, they are forcing people to spend way too much money for this. For $65 under 50K total, you get only 3 useful promos and the rest is really not worth it. $65 for a game that passes off unique art as a promo and only 3 get tangible useable items in game is too much.

To get the real useable stuff you have either
a- pledge $100 to go elite or
b - hope this game hit 50K in pledges just to get anything worth while

In either case, IMHO, I feel they are "forcing" people to either pledge at the Elite level $130 to get everything and and have this happen alot to even come close to 100K or at minimum 50k or pledge $65 at the "everyone level" just because $130 is too expensive, even though at $65 you really don't get any good promos out of it.

I don't like their marketing strategy at all.

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Jawn Bee
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boricua1111 wrote:

In either case, IMHO, I feel they are "forcing" people to either pledge at the Elite level $130 to get everything and and have this happen alot to even come close to 100K or at minimum 50k or pledge $65 at the "everyone level" just because $130 is too expensive, even though at $65 you really don't get any good promos out of it.
I don't like their marketing strategy at all.


I feel the same, and there's more discussion about it on the Kickstarter forum:
http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/59640/item/2327752#item232...

I wonder what will happen if people buy into the elite tier but there isn't enough money from the pool of backers to unlock any rewards. I guess people at that level would keep a close eye on the funding progress, and reduce their pledge if it becomes increasingly likely that the game will get more than $12k, but less than $20k.

It's a pity, though. The //premise// of the game does seem interesting, although I'd want to know how the fight mechanics actually works and some more insight into whether there's more strategy than buy units, move them towards the walls, and keep rolling die until you get enough damage tokens on the wall.
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rich n
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Hey all,

Great questions on reward levels and hope I can personally address any concerns you may have. Our intent was to offer different pledge levels to accommodate different budgets and interest levels (i.e. some gamers want all the promos extras, some don't).

Instead of offering the game at a higher "basic" cost to include the promo sets and expansions we did it ad hoc - that way we can keep the "basic" cost down.

We've revised many of the tiers (added more rewards) and each pledge now gets 2 heroes and those at $65 above get additional promos (both promos "usable items". We hope you take a look at the base game and what it is vs. "getting stuck" on the extras - that's just what they are - extras for those interested in getting more. Hope that makes sense and taken in a good way.

The extra dice and so on actually are handy - instead of passing around the dice - not just for losing them . We could have worded the levels different - sometimes what you think "makes sense" doesn't make sense to others - but we do have a new pledge graphic that should help.

Invite you guys to check out the rewards again and if anything, if you like what you've seen of the game, the $55 base game pledge is available and at a great price (comes with 2 xtra heroes ta boot) - you can always upgrade later if you wish to get more.

As for strategy that's a great question.
Each Dark Force army is unique in its abilities, strengths and weakness, power cards, units, ability to use magic etc. How you spend your money, what you buy, what cards to use, where you move (you can move anywhere on the board), what battlefield upgrades to slay peasants at and gain the accompanied bonus, should you work together with 1 or all the players (or not), do you smash walls or buy ladders, how do you control the events, do you pick on 1 player an incur their displeasure or spread it out, how do you move the Fantasy Defender units, do you lend aid to a "weak" ally to help knock down a castle side (which in turn reduces the # of Fantasy Event cards drawn), do you choose to go last in a game turn to have your allies weaken the defenders and then move in, do you bid on being the Boss and reap all his powers but yet risk not having enough gold to fully utilize your forces, do you deploy in another player's battlefield and harass him, or do you attack his flanks, do you send your siege units in first, or summon your champion, do you rely on quantity or quality units, and much more...

Hope this post helps a bit in the understanding of the campaign and project. Please email me any questions!

Thanks and see you on the battlefield,

Rich









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Joseph Soonsin Lee
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ragesteel wrote:
Hey all,

Great questions on reward levels and hope I can personally address any concerns you may have. Our intent was to offer different pledge levels to accommodate different budgets and interest levels (i.e. some gamers want all the promos extras, some don't).

Instead of offering the game at a higher "basic" cost to include the promo sets and expansions we did it ad hoc - that way we can keep the "basic" cost down.

We've revised many of the tiers (added more rewards) and each pledge now gets 2 heroes and those at $65 above get additional promos (both promos "usable items". We hope you take a look at the base game and what it is vs. "getting stuck" on the extras - that's just what they are - extras for those interested in getting more. Hope that makes sense and taken in a good way.

The extra dice and so on actually are handy - instead of passing around the dice - not just for losing them . We could have worded the levels different - sometimes what you think "makes sense" doesn't make sense to others - but we do have a new pledge graphic that should help.

Invite you guys to check out the rewards again and if anything, if you like what you've seen of the game, the $55 base game pledge is available and at a great price (comes with 2 xtra heroes ta boot) - you can always upgrade later if you wish to get more.

As for strategy that's a great question.
Each Dark Force army is unique in its abilities, strengths and weakness, power cards, units, ability to use magic etc. How you spend your money, what you buy, what cards to use, where you move (you can move anywhere on the board), what battlefield upgrades to slay peasants at and gain the accompanied bonus, should you work together with 1 or all the players (or not), do you smash walls or buy ladders, how do you control the events, do you pick on 1 player an incur their displeasure or spread it out, how do you move the Fantasy Defender units, do you lend aid to a "weak" ally to help knock down a castle side (which in turn reduces the # of Fantasy Event cards drawn), do you choose to go last in a game turn to have your allies weaken the defenders and then move in, do you bid on being the Boss and reap all his powers but yet risk not having enough gold to fully utilize your forces, do you deploy in another player's battlefield and harass him, or do you attack his flanks, do you send your siege units in first, or summon your champion, do you rely on quantity or quality units, and much more...

Hope this post helps a bit in the understanding of the campaign and project. Please email me any questions!

Thanks and see you on the battlefield,

Rich


Hey Rich, thanks for coming on here a trying to clear up your thinking behind your tier choices. I understand the want and need to keep the game price low to keep it affordable. I can also understand having people pay a premium to get more. But, all I want to get is the game, the expansion and all the promo cards and be eligible for some if not all the stretch goals. Especially, if the stretch goal is component upgrade. I do not need to get anything else. I was going to say that maybe it is just me but this thread proves it is not.

This game was going to be a definite pledge for me but then I started reading the tiers and realized that if I pledge for the base game $55 and I want to get all the promo cards and mini-expansion and stretch rewards that I have to up my pledge to $130. I have no problem pledging more to get every game play related item but $75 more to get the rest of the promos, a mini expansion and stretch goals just seems like a money grab.

I have backed over 100 kickstarter projects so I have seen many different ways to do rewards and stretch goals. I am not asking for a deal of a century or to get all these things for the price of the base game. I just want to pay a reasonable price to back a game that looks good to me and also get everything that affect or add variety to game play, such as promo cards and expansions. I have no problem with getting some stretch goals that are a la carte, such as for miniatures, custom game cards, player mats, etc. But the only way to get all the promo cards(17 total, I think) is by going all in with the $130 pledge and I just can not justify spending an additional $75 and risking that much on a game that I am not sure I will even like. So, for now, I think I am going to sit this one out.
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rich n
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Hey @Joe

Thanks for the email. I think at $55 your getting a fantastic game with 2 promos pieces at a very great price. We can't please everyone but the extras are for the fans that want to collect everything.

For me, I went crazy with Ascension (and other games) but I have none of the promos (they're not a deal breaker for me). I'm totally fine with that because I love the base game cause it's great! Everyone has a different purchase philosophy and that's totally cool. But really all you need is the base game and have fun with it. I wouldn't exclude supporting a great game for an optional purchase upgrade. More expansions are coming and maybe we'll offer these promos here on BGG in the future and there's a host of variety already in the base game.

My suggestion is don't spend the $75 and just enjoy the base game (w/ the promos we're giving). At $65 you get 2 promo heroes +2 promo cards + many rewards at $85 pledge you get 2 promo sets +2 heroes and a mini expansion + 2 more promos + many stretch rewards. That may be enticing from what I'm reading what you wrote.

Would love to have you on board! Plus enter our Facebook contest we're looking to give the whole farm away!

Thanks,

Rich
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Joseph Soonsin Lee
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@Rich

I appreciate your reply. What you said does make sense. I understand that this game does not need these cards to be a great game on it's own. I am kind of a completest personally, so I like to have all the promos. I know this is a personal preference and not everyone is like that. Anyway, I appreciate you responding back to my post so quickly. I know I am replying kind of late but I did not see that you had posted til now.

Since that time I see that the kickstarter is going to relaunch so I look forward to checking it out when it goes live. I will definitely take what you said into consideration. I am sure I will be backing this game at some level.
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Bryan Graham
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If it helps any, they announced today that they'll be re-launching the project in order to implement clearer backer levels, so hopefully soon you'll be able to get what you want for a price you like
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rich n
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Hey all - we'll be relaunching with a MUCH improved pledge and stretch reward system.

Thanks for your patience and hope you come check us out. Looking at tentatively Sunday/Monday this week - but shooting for Saturday!

Thanks!
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David Millette
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You've got to respect someone who actually listens to what people are saying. You can't please everyone for sure, but if it's within your power to do so it's best to try and please as many people as possible. Good luck Rich. I have now backed your game...
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Jose Negron

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mille1212 wrote:
You've got to respect someone who actually listens to what people are saying. You can't please everyone for sure, but if it's within your power to do so it's best to try and please as many people as possible. Good luck Rich. I have now backed your game...


Definitely. As long as the new pledge levels make sense, to me, I will be backing.
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