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Subject: Terrible with many people rss

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f s
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Had a seven player game yesterday. Goodness. That was terrible! It took about three hours to finish, which means the game overstayed its welcome, made a home for itself and its offspring in my favourite chair, ruined the whole house, ran around screaming at midnight and then began to wreck my games collection. Or something of that sort. More than one of us really only wanted the game to end after one and a half hour or so but that was near impossible. I ended up taking the mercenary just so that no one could destroy buildings so the game would END....

Will not do this again.
Has anyone similiar experiences or should I just accept that I am not a gamer enough to stomach the glories of a three hour game of this?
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Tom M.
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I think that your experience is probably pretty common with this game and high player counts. I wouldn't want to go over 5 players.
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Bill Kunes
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If you have a bunch of newbies or AP players a larger group game can drag on. With some experience it does get faster. I've also played with larger groups with fewer districts triggering the end game to keep the game/time more reasonable.

Perhaps, not an ideal answer, but some thoughts from my experience for what it's worth.
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Pedro Pereira
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Your suffering was my pleasure!

But I agree with you, this game shouldn't take longer than 30 - 45 mins to be enjoyable. I too had a simillar experience with 6 players if I'm not mistaken. It didn't take quite as long, but after an hour or so, players were starting to feel bored and all wanted the game to finish quickly.

I would say maybe 4 players would be ideal...

But if you want you can always try and play with 8 players if you have the expansion! devil
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I played with 8 players, and it didn't seem to drag on at all. Everyone knew what the characters did after a couple turns, so people usually knew which they wanted. So they either grabbed it if it was available, or they took whatever else worked best. As the cards diminish, it makes the choices even easier.

The players also usually knew what they planned on doing and building, so there was very little AP throughout the game. With only 1 out of 8 being assassinated, and 1 being stolen from, and at most 1 building being destroyed from the Warlord, that's only 3 out of 8 players not building or losing a building, which meant the game overall lasted less rounds than say a 4-5 player game, because buildings were being built faster than they could be stopped, especially if more than one was built by the architect.

If 3 of the 5 players were prevented from building, or had one torn down, then you would need a lot more rounds for someone to finally hit that 8th building.

So in the end, it really just depends on the group.
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bruno faidutti
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I actually think it's best with 4 or 5, but prefer to play with 6 or 7 than with 2 or 3. No matter the number of players, it works well only if players don't drag when selecting their character - you can think a bit before the cards arrive to you, and then make your choice almost instantly.
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Abraham Drucker
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I played a 7 player game which was terrible, in large part because it took people forever to choose their roles, people left to go smoke and didn't pay attention.

I've also had many wonderful plays, where everyone was paying attention, knew the roles, had a strategy and was really cut-throat.

Most notably, I played a 6-player game recently with probably the most remarkable ending ever. 5 players tied. I lost.

Mr. Faidutti doesn't believe in tie-brakers, so everyone else won that night. Still a favortie gaming memory.
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f s
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Yes, it might have had to do with the group. The game probably needs to be played as a "serious" game and people must be willing to really concentrate. In our case that did not work too well, which might have been caused by wrong assumptions (I do consider the game a filler with a maximum of four people - its over in an hour or less.) But also table setup (not being able to see all cards easily) plus a general emphasis on trash talking and socializing did not help too much.
 
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David Dawson
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This is one of the reasons I've hesitated to get this game. Although there's always the variant where you only play to 6 or 7 buildings with more than 5 or so people.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Citadels can be outstanding with 7.

BUT you need the right group who understand the cards and can play swiftly.

Even one newbie or one slowcoach is going to make it a disaster.
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f s
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We actually discussed playing only to 6 buildings, but the majority of the players did not agree, because they felt this would unbalance the game.
Did I mention that we were split in opinion and that some of the people involved did claim that they liked out three hour game? (No joke, there really seems a matter of taste involved too.)
 
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Sight Reader
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Si Fei wrote:
Goodness. That was terrible!

ze_stom wrote:
...took people forever to choose their roles

Our King simply cuts the role deck in two and passes each half in opposite directions.
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Abraham Drucker
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sightreader wrote:
Si Fei wrote:
Goodness. That was terrible!

ze_stom wrote:
...took people forever to choose their roles

Our King simply cuts the role deck in two and passes each half in opposite directions.


Aaack! but, but, but that ruins the whole bluffing and deduction aspect of the game.
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Sight Reader
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ze_stom wrote:

Aaack! but, but, but that ruins the whole bluffing and deduction aspect of the game.

How so?
 
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Jerome Nivet
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sightreader wrote:
ze_stom wrote:

Aaack! but, but, but that ruins the whole bluffing and deduction aspect of the game.

How so?


Because in that case, since the roles are dealt randomly, there is no decision-making in choosing the characters whatsoever, and therefore no strategy.
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Sight Reader
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The Diamond Geezer wrote:
Because in that case, since the roles are dealt randomly

Randomly?? Let me try to explain again...

Half the people choose from half the deck in half the time (the same being true with the other half).

The King controls which half goes in which direction. People still choose what roles to take from a reduced set.
 
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sightreader wrote:
The Diamond Geezer wrote:
Because in that case, since the roles are dealt randomly

Randomly?? Let me try to explain again...

Half the people choose from half the deck in half the time (the same being true with the other half).

The King controls which half goes in which direction. People still choose what roles to take from a reduced set.


I also have an hard time understanding that.
On what basis do the assassin and the thief "aim"?
 
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Abraham Drucker
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sightreader wrote:
ze_stom wrote:

Aaack! but, but, but that ruins the whole bluffing and deduction aspect of the game.

How so?


If I choose second, and I choose the thief, I have a 50/50 shot of knowing what is face down, and what the king chose. I then also know which cards, save one will be chosen by the people after me. I can also strategically take a role which I know will be strongly desired by the person to my left.

If I only have half the deck to choose from, I have no idea what cards the folks on the other side of the table can choose from.

I also have a vastly reduced set of roles to choose from, meaning that all strategy is significantly limited, and choosing the king, or being to the left of the king loses most of it's value.
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Ben Bateson
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sightreader wrote:

Our King simply cuts the role deck in two and passes each half in opposite directions.


Let me second the opinion that this is NOT a good idea.
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Sight Reader
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K____ wrote:
I also have an hard time understanding that.
On what basis do the assassin and the thief "aim"?

Sorry it wasn't clear. There are a lot of ways to run it, so this is just a suggestion:

1. The King collects all role cards and divides them in two (none are randomly removed).

2. He passes them to the two people sitting across from him.

3. These two pick a role and pass in divergent directions until they get back to the King.

4. The King chooses from what cards make it back to him from both sides. Remaining roles are not used this round.

There are many obvious variants to this for even numbers of players and so forth...

Deduction
The King has tremendous power to deny roles by how he divides the deck. Unfortunately, he also gets stuck with last choice.

The first person to choose on each side knows exactly what cards the other side is choosing from, providing a powerful basis for deduction.

The final few people on both sides now know what little the people after them have to choose from. The exception, of course, is they don't know what cards the King might inherit from the other side.

No, it's not perfect, but it sure plays well with 12, the number we tried it with.
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Sight Reader
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ze_stom wrote:
If I choose second, and I choose the thief, I have a 50/50 shot of knowing what is face down, and what the king chose. I then also know which cards, save one will be chosen by the people after me.

By the way, did the above description help? Some people will have even more information from which to deduce, but the nature of that information is different.

New dynamics include role denial (available to the King), exact knowledge of someone else's role deal and a shorter run of players for cards to pass through. A dynamic retained are deductions available when fewer and fewer cards being sent to remaining players.

The King also has the ability to deduce exactly what was chosen by each side, but with last choice his ability to exploit that information is limited (never allow the Assassin or Thief to be sent on to the King!)

The deductive mechanism lost is the advantage to early role choosers in deducing what their predecessors may have chosen. This is somewhat ameliorated by the much richer selection and, in the case of the first chooser, exact knowledge of what the other half is starting with.
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Si Fei wrote:


Will not do this again.
Has anyone similiar experiences or should I just accept that I am not a gamer enough to stomach the glories of a three hour game of this?
Ironically enough, it's the gamers that can't stand this. At best, non-gamers feel the same way.

When I play this game, I build to 6 to 7 districts for 7p-8p, and 7 to 8 districts for 5p-6p
 
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