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Subject: Vinhos vs Agricola rss

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Moe45673
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Pretend you have a seasoned Eurogamer who is good with learning rules. Which is the more satisfying engine builder resource managing optimizer? Which one is more fun (not "wheeeeeee GALAXYTRUCKER" fun but "Hot damn this game is engrossing and I want to play again to improve my score right now" fun)

This would most likely be played two player. My wife and I are currently loving Agricola: ACBaS, but the wife likes wine and the theme of Vinhos will appeal to her. I'm personally more inclined to Vinhos, not based off any solid reasoning (like having played both) but more the components and artwork and the way the gameplay works, from the reviews I've watched. Yes, I find the theme charming too.

Having said all that, I'm openminded. ACBaS is awesomely fun and a meatier version would definitely be welcome.

I know the games are different, but the tight engine builder resource managing optimizer thing is something I've really come to like recently
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Walt
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Vinhos. For some shorter, but not lighter, games: Caylus (no randomness except starting player), Goa, maybe Ora et Labora. For shorter and lighter, but still eco-engines: Egizia, Saint Petersburg (you'll probably want the expansion).

Edit: I don't have to pretend. laugh I have played both: enough to dismiss Agricola and buy Vinhos, though I still haven't played it enough.
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Moe45673
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One vote that says Vinhos is preferred. I didn't understand from your post, did you not like Agricola or did Vinhos retire it?
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Brian D
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I like both but they are both very different. I have played Agricola quite a bit and Vinhos only once since I just recently acquired it. Based on my one play of Vinhos, I would choose to play Vinhos more often than Agricola but they are both "must have" games. There are so many different strategies to choose from in Vinhos...had it been about beer instead of wine, I would've liked it even more since I can't stand wine.
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Walt
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Moe45673 wrote:
One vote that says Vinhos is preferred. I didn't understand from your post, did you not like Agricola or did Vinhos retire it?

I do not like Agricola.
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Moe45673
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Brian: Fürstenfeld?

Lee: Thanks for your opinion

Tall_Walt: Thanks for clarifying.
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Rob Steward
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I really like both but would say that Agricola is definitely better.
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Moe45673 wrote:

the tight engine builder thing is something I've really come to like recently

I woudn't describe Agricola as an engine game. It's more like a tight resource and action optimization game. The system is really good and it's a well designed game. I'll play it occasionally but the nature of the game is too much about optimatization to me. The scores are quite low compared to many euros and even 1 or 2 VPs from different places actually matter a lot.

Vinhos has a lot going on and maybe too much for the first play but I assume it will get better after a few plays. Hard to say anything solid after one play.

If you really like ACBaS that much then I don't see any reason why you shouldn't buy Agricola.
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Laura Creighton
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If you want the engine-building experience, I wouldn't go with either. Ora et Labora and Le Havre beat them both solidly, if you want an Uwe Rosenberg game.
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Moe45673
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I'm sorry, I meant resource management. I will edit my original post.

Loving Homesteaders and ACBaS, so I mean optimization games like these
 
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Laura Creighton
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Do you like card drafting games? If not, skip Agricola.
 
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Moe45673
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Gric has card-drafting... meaning you can choose to pick up either a card turned face down or a card from a limited set of face up ones and use that card to "break" the game?

When that's done well (Citadels), love it.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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lacreighton wrote:
Do you like card drafting games? If not, skip Agricola.


Card draft is just 1 option to get the 14 cards in your hand. You don't have to do "drafting" (ala 7 Wonders) in order to play Agricola.

 
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Laura Creighton
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That's not what I mean.

Agricola has 'Minor Improvements' and 'Occupations'. If you play the game by just dealing a random set of cards to each player, you will find that the person who has the set of cards that works best with each other wins. Not every time, but as a general rule. The way you combat this is to have a draft.

Before the game starts, each player receives a hand of 7 Occupation cards as usual, then chooses one and passes the rest to her left-hand neighbor. Each player chooses one of the 6 new cards and passes on the remaining 5. This continues until each player has 7 cards. Repeat this process with the Minor Improvement cards.

This draft is from the appendix of the Agricola manual. It is also how http://play-agricola.com does it, except I think they start with 8 cards and you end up with 1 to discard, 7-wonders style.

If this sounds like fun to you, then all is well. If this sounds like the WP game you wanted somehow got converted into a card drafting game, and you don't like card drafting games, skip Agricola. You'll like Ora et Labora better.
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Daniel Knaack
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jasebbi wrote:
I like both but they are both very different. I have played Agricola quite a bit and Vinhos only once since I just recently acquired it. Based on my one play of Vinhos, I would choose to play Vinhos more often than Agricola but they are both "must have" games. There are so many different strategies to choose from in Vinhos...had it been about beer instead of wine, I would've liked it even more since I can't stand wine.


You are just a complete barbarian, aren't you?
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Walt
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As I recall (I played 'Gric when it first came out) the standard, by-the-rules method of getting cards is, you get them at random. If they suck, your game sucks. So my reaction was, why not just compare cards at the beginning, figure out whose are better, and avoid two hours of really slow play and filling out the ledger score sheet?

That explanation of my dislike of 'Gric aside, you're sounding closer to Caylus, Goa, and maybe Glen More.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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I know what you mean. Drafting is 1 way to go, another is the 10-3 to get the 7 cards you want, or discard all 7 and get 6 cards instead of them, rinse and repeat if you do not like them.

But yes, drafting is the more "fun" option since you can look and plan while drafting to get the best synergy among the minor improvements and occupation cards. It does add time to the game though.

I'm actually looking at Ora et Labora as a possible future purchase, although it now is getting competition from Feldian games (CoB, Trajan) in my mind.

Back to Agricola, the cards give the game tremendous replayability and longetivity, especially if you include all the expansions. I highly recommend it!

 
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I've played both 2p. I've played Agricola 96 times, almost all 2p, and Vinhos once (it's a much more recent purchase, but Agricola is definitely the one we say, Wow, let's play again!) It's the card combinations that make for interesting strategies. I also like the sense of building up my farm. Although Vinhos has player boards, I didn't have quite the same sense of building.
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Walt
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chefdevergue wrote:
jasebbi wrote:
I like both but they are both very different. I have played Agricola quite a bit and Vinhos only once since I just recently acquired it. Based on my one play of Vinhos, I would choose to play Vinhos more often than Agricola but they are both "must have" games. There are so many different strategies to choose from in Vinhos...had it been about beer instead of wine, I would've liked it even more since I can't stand wine.

You are just a complete barbarian, aren't you?

As I recall, Ora et Labora has a French (wine) and Irish (beer) side to the game (everything, nearly). If you want whiskey, you have to go to Glen More.
 
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Laura Creighton
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Nope, Ora et Labora has a Whiskey Distillery too (on the Irish side).
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J J
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lacreighton wrote:
That's not what I mean.

Agricola has 'Minor Improvements' and 'Occupations'. If you play the game by just dealing a random set of cards to each player, you will find that the person who has the set of cards that works best with each other wins. Not every time, but as a general rule. The way you combat this is to have a draft.

Before the game starts, each player receives a hand of 7 Occupation cards as usual, then chooses one and passes the rest to her left-hand neighbor. Each player chooses one of the 6 new cards and passes on the remaining 5. This continues until each player has 7 cards. Repeat this process with the Minor Improvement cards.

This draft is from the appendix of the Agricola manual. It is also how http://play-agricola.com does it, except I think they start with 8 cards and you end up with 1 to discard, 7-wonders style.

If this sounds like fun to you, then all is well. If this sounds like the WP game you wanted somehow got converted into a card drafting game, and you don't like card drafting games, skip Agricola. You'll like Ora et Labora better.


Yeahhh... The three minutes spent drafting at the start of the game (IF you choose that method) completely overshadows the next hour and a half of strategic choices on the board. shake
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Josh Martin
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Well if it was me I'd buy both of course (I did). But if I had to choose one I'd say Agricola hands down- you enjoy AcBaS so you'll almost certainly enjoy Agricola, and it definitely has a "want to play again" factor. But the biggest thing going for it for your criteria is how well it plays as a 2er. Note that I have played this game over 200x and that it's also my wife's favourite game. All that said, I think Vinhos is a great game as well, and definitely different enough to warrant owning both- the theme is also great here, but although it certainly plays pretty well as a 2er, it's not as good a 2er as Agricola (everything posted on BGG is course "IMO").

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Sky Zero
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I own and love both equally, BUT if you only have the money for 1, then you might get more table time with Agricola. That's only because there's a family mode and various modes of card levels you can play (EIK decks). Like I said, I would not part with either and personally I'd probably keep Vinhos if I could only keep one, but Agricola is more "non-gamer" friendly.
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Moe45673
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Sounds like Gric is the way to go. I personally am not wary of Vinhos' complexity; I have really had to search recently to discover what games I'd want (meaning I'm not buying the latest and greatest every time one crosses my vision anymore). As long as I'm not switching up the games every two seconds, my wife is fine playing with me

Maybe I'll squeeze in Glen More as well, that's a game that's had me curious. And it's cheap

*edit* after watching the DriveThruReview on Glen More, I'm unsure it would give me anything that Homesteaders (especially combined with Agricola) would not
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Chris Ferejohn
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Quote:
Agricola has 'Minor Improvements' and 'Occupations'. If you play the game by just dealing a random set of cards to each player, you will find that the person who has the set of cards that works best with each other wins. Not every time, but as a general rule. The way you combat this is to have a draft.


I find this happens almost never and is most easily remedied be banning a few cards. A draft is nice if you are playing with people who have all played the game upwards of 30-40 times, but other than that it's completely unnecessary.
 
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