Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Explain data sucker please rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jacob Garr
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
do you have to remove the counter on datasucker or is it always a -1 until the corp roves the virus counters. Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noah D

Arlington
Virginia
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
It uses the basic cost:effect format. So yes, the token must be spent.

Datasucker tokens being spent is actually the example given in the rulebook.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Remove a counter is the cost, so you need to remove a counter for each -1, and then it goes away after that encounter.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Finkel
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rules forum?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Garr
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One more question the card that allows the runner to pull 2 additional cardsoff the r&d do they get to trash or score multiple cards with that? Sorry dont have game in fornt of me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
El-ad David Amir
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jacobgarr wrote:
One more question the card that allows the runner to pull 2 additional cardsoff the r&d do they get to trash or score multiple cards with that? Sorry dont have game in fornt of me.

They access each card in turn and decide whether the trash it, score it or return it. The cards are returned in the same order.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Garr
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does it cost to score?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Liam
Scotland
flag msg tools
admin
badge
I am BGG's official honey trap
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Moved to Rules

If you see something that you feel would get better responses elsewhere, flag it as 'wrong forum'. Telling the OP doesn't get it moved.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Garr
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Your rivht should have been in rules sorry. Was on phone and didnt relize itwwas in general. Still curious though the way i read the rules the runner doesnt have to pay to score an genda so with this card they could get 2 andbecome far ahead or 3 and win in round 1 seems a little op to me....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
No, the Runner doesn't have to pay to score agendas. Corps pay; Runners steal.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Gardner
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
Jacobgarr wrote:
Your rivht should have been in rules sorry. Was on phone and didnt relize itwwas in general. Still curious though the way i read the rules the runner doesnt have to pay to score an genda so with this card they could get 2 andbecome far ahead or 3 and win in round 1 seems a little op to me....


"The Maker's Eye" is the card in question, and yes, it is very powerful. This, along and in combination with Tinkering (which lets you turn any ice into essentially all ice sub-types), is what keeps the Shapers threatening early game.

However, the chances of winning the game with a single maker's eye is incredibly slim. Consider a typical corp deck right now with 49 cards. Most corps will have 9 agenda cards (NBN and Weyland can have more which would change the ratio, but humor me). This is roughly 20%, meaning the odds of drawing an agenda from a typical R&D run is roughly 1 in 5. Maker's Eye dramatically increases the chance of getting at least one agenda and even getting two agendas is not an extremely uncommon experience.

If by God's divine intervention you happen to score two 2-point agendas and one priority requisition bringing your point total to 7 (winning in one move), you say, "#*&% dude, I'm sorry. You had a horrible shuffle. (And you probably wouldn't have won even if I didn't play Maker's Eye)."

Again, I didn't punch out exact percentages. Different decks and different corps have different ratios, but at the moment I consider them to all be roughly the same. I just wanted to plug that I believe the chances of winning the game with one maker's eye is extremely unlikely.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Caleb

Rhode Island
msg tools
Syncitia wrote:
Jacobgarr wrote:
Your rivht should have been in rules sorry. Was on phone and didnt relize itwwas in general. Still curious though the way i read the rules the runner doesnt have to pay to score an genda so with this card they could get 2 andbecome far ahead or 3 and win in round 1 seems a little op to me....


Again, I didn't punch out exact percentages. Different decks and different corps have different ratios, but at the moment I consider them to all be roughly the same. I just wanted to plug that I believe the chances of winning the game with one maker's eye is extremely unlikely.


A challenge! Let's try and win with our first click off of Maker's Eye...

Versus Jinteki or HB starter: 49 cards, 9 3AP agendas. Assuming the corp hasn't drawn any additional cards on his first turn, there are 43 cards left in R&D and 6 elsewhere. The first 9 cards of the deck are relevant -- the first 6 are in the Corp's hand and/or installed somewhere, and for a first turn Maker's Eye to win, the next three cards on top of R&D all need to be agendas. Of course, it makes a difference whether or not any of those 6 cards the Corp has already seen are agendas, so let's say the Corp has already seen 'a' of his 9 agendas.

For reference, the probability of having 'a' agendas in the top 6 cards, plotted from a=0 to 6: Wolfram Alpha
That calculation asks "which a of the 9 agendas are in his hand? of the 40 non-agenda cards, which 6-a make up the rest of his hand?", and there are of course 49 choose 6 possible hands. Note that the Corp will usually have one agenda, or 2 about a quarter of the time. (Yes, I know a >2 agenda hand would probably get mulliganed, but let's not bother taking that into account -- it would be doable, but probably not worth the effort.)

In each of those 6 cases, depending on the value of a, we also want the chance that the next 3 cards are 3 more agendas. That's easy, we ask "which of the remaining 9-a agendas are they?" and divide by the number of triples of cards that Maker's Eye could show up (any 3 of the 43 cards that aren't in hand): Wolfram Alpha
Clearly, the more that are in hand, the worse our chances of finding them on top of R&D.

Summing up those possibilities, since any one of those 6 situations is still a win, we have a total chance of roughly 1/200: Wolfram Alpha

Not impossible, but not bloodly likely. (Note that the odd cases where the Corp is holding 3+ agendas are not only vanishingly unlikely, but our chance of winning with Maker's Eye are vanishingly small, so it really doesn't hurt to leave them in and simplify the calculations.)


Versus a Weyland starter, we fare slightly better: 49 cards, 11 agendas, and since only 2 of them are 2 AP, any 3 still give us at least 7 AP. Replacing all the 9's with 11's in the above calculations, since that's the only thing that changes, gives us
Agendas in Hand
Agendas in Top 3
Chance of Winning
Which about two and a half times more likely as a victory against Jinteki/HB. Hooray! Still probably never going to happen, though. Notice that with 11 agendas, Weyland actually has a reasonable chance of drawing into 3 of them, so mulligans should be a real factor here.

Versus an NBN starter, we fare slightly worse: 49 cards, 10 agendas, four of them 2 AP, so hitting 3 agendas off Maker's Eye isn't even always enough for a win. I think I've done my part here. This is left as an exercise to the reader.


EDIT: D'oh! I'm an idiot. I pulled the decklists off of cardgamedb and somehow misread the quantity of the card present in the deck as the agenda point value, which makes precisely zero sense. That's what I get for skipping my morning coffee. Maybe I'll redo this later, but in the meantime, this is nonsense. Sorry all! So these are still the correct probabilities for hitting 3 agendas with a first-action Maker's Eye, but they do not take into account the presence of 1-2 AP agendas which would net you less than the full 7 points.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wouldn't a 49 card deck with 27 agenda points be illegal? or am I doing some math wrong?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cardboardjunkie wrote:
Wouldn't a 49 card deck with 27 agenda points be illegal? or am I doing some math wrong?


That's some good math right there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks. I was just reading Iranon's puzzle and thought something was off. It's hard to tell how many points he's using in Weyland and NBN, but I suspect they're high as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
EDIT: D'oh! I'm an idiot. I pulled the decklists off of cardgamedb and somehow misread the quantity of the card present in the deck as the agenda point value, which makes precisely zero sense. That's what I get for skipping my morning coffee. Maybe I'll redo this later, but in the meantime, this is nonsense. Sorry all! So these are still the correct probabilities for hitting 3 agendas with a first-action Maker's Eye, but they do not take into account the presence of 1-2 AP agendas which would net you less than the full 7 points.


And there are a lot of them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott C
United States
Troy
OH
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, Iranon's thought experiment wasn't that far off.

He'd already specified HB or Jinteki -- they don't have any 1 point agendas.

As such, all you need is to score at least one of the 3 Priority Requisitions in the deck as one of your 3 agendas stolen to get your 1-run victory.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.