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Dominion: Prosperity» Forums » Rules

Subject: Horn of Plenty / Grand Market rss

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Tim Ricord
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Apologies if this has already been addressed elsewhere. I was playing with my kids (15, 13) and our neighbor (the Hobbit - 15) the other day, and in one game we were playing with a supply that included Horn of Plenty and Grand Market. The Hobbit was playing out his hand, and had 5 different types of cards in play, including Horn of Plenty. He then lays down a Copper and announces he’s getting a Grand Market.

“Hey,” says me, “you can’t do that cuz you have a Copper in play, you can’t get a Grand Market when you have a copper in play.”

“Well that’s if you’re buying the Grand Market” says the Hobbit, “which I am not cuz I am gaining it”.

“@#$%” says me, thinking that he was probably right but I filed an official protest, outcome to be decided by consensus on BGG. What say you all – can you get a Grand Market via a Horn of Plenty when you have a copper in play?
 
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Donald X.
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Northshire wrote:
What say you all – can you get a Grand Market via a Horn of Plenty when you have a copper in play?

Yes; Grand Market's restriction only applies to buying it, not to gaining it via Remodel or Horn of Plenty or what have you.
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David desJardins
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Northshire wrote:
Apologies if this has already been addressed elsewhere. I was playing with my kids (15, 13) and our neighbor (the Hobbit - 15) the other day, and in one game we were playing with a supply that included Horn of Plenty and Grand Market. The Hobbit was playing out his hand, and had 5 different types of cards in play, including Horn of Plenty. He then lays down a Copper and announces he’s getting a Grand Market.


Technically, there's a problem here, because the Horn of Plenty only counts the cards in play when you play it. But he probably could have achieved the result just by playing his cards in a different order.
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Jeff Wolfe
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I've seen people try to play treasure to gain a more expensive card with Horn of Plenty. If that's what he was trying to do, you can't do that. But, if he had four different cards in play and then played Copper and Horn of Plenty to get six different cards in play, he could indeed have gained a Grand Market.
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Charles Waterman
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I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc
 
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James Newton
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montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc

It's nothing to do with when "in play" applies. It is to do with what Grand Market says on it.
Grand Market wrote:
You can‘t buy this if you have any Copper in play.
(Emphasis mine)

And since when has Dominion been so thematic that you can derive precise effects from it?
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D Stu
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montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc


The reason is that the Grand Market vendor never gets to see the Copper. You pay them with the Horn of Plenty, that looks the prettier the more diverse your kingdom is. Yeah, build with Platinum it would look a bit prettier, but more on this later.

So at home, you build your pretty Horn of Plenty. Yes, you used some Coppers while constructing it, but the Horn of Plenty is not as elitist as these Grand Market vendors, it just doesn't care and gets just nearly as pretty as if you would have used a Platinum instead of the Copper.

With this pretty Horn of Plenty, you now go to the Grand Market vendors, who can not distinguish it from an Horn of Plenty build in "better" kingdoms, and buy the Grand Market. Because after all, these vendors are not as good as they claim, they are just some sily noobs that have read on the internetz that "Copper suckz" without really understanding what is going on, and lack the capability to analyze this HoP.
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Hans Broersen
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At his age and being such a stickler with the exact wording, I would disallowed this because the Copper was not "in play" when he played Horn of Plenty,making for only 5 differently named cards.
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David desJardins
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montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically?


Why the hell would anyone give you valuable stuff because you've got lots of cards "in play" in the first place? I think you're looking for "theme" in entirely the wrong place.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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I've found Dominion has always played better if the exact rules for the game are followed. Not understanding the rules or forgetting them is probably unavoidable on occasion, but just deciding to ignore the rules seems like bad form to me.
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Nate S
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montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc

Glad I'm not playing at your table if you reserve the right to break the actual rules of the game at the whims of your ideas about theme

To the OP, do note that your friend needed to play the Copper before the Horn of Plenty (to get 6 differently-named cards in play). HoP gains a card as soon as you play it, not later after you maybe play more treasure cards. (*as mentioned by DdJ and Jeff already)
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Charles Waterman
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DStu wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc


The reason is that the Grand Market vendor never gets to see the Copper. You pay them with the Horn of Plenty, that looks the prettier the more diverse your kingdom is. Yeah, build with Platinum it would look a bit prettier, but more on this later.

So at home, you build your pretty Horn of Plenty. Yes, you used some Coppers while constructing it, but the Horn of Plenty is not as elitist as these Grand Market vendors, it just doesn't care and gets just nearly as pretty as if you would have used a Platinum instead of the Copper.

With this pretty Horn of Plenty, you now go to the Grand Market vendors, who can not distinguish it from an Horn of Plenty build in "better" kingdoms, and buy the Grand Market. Because after all, these vendors are not as good as they claim, they are just some sily noobs that have read on the internetz that "Copper suckz" without really understanding what is going on, and lack the capability to analyze this HoP.


A helpful response from a person who understands my desire to explore the roleplay potential of nearly every game that is thematic! Thanks. $0.05 Geekgold coming your way.

Seriously, that really makes thematic sense to me. The Horn of Plenty is what I'm using to *impress* those who will sell me control of the Grand Market area. The Horn gives me the perceived worth that they are looking for in one who could acquire this!

Montebanc
 
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Charles Waterman
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ghorsche wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically? I "get" that you can't spend copper to buy a "Grand" Market because commoners wouldn't be allowed to buy one. I don't think it works thematically if you allow Horn of Plenty to bypass the "no copper in play" rule, so on my table it ain't gonna happen.

Montebanc

Glad I'm not playing at your table if you reserve the right to break the actual rules of the game at the whims of your ideas about theme


You're right, we probably wouldn't enjoy playing together. I'm more interested in finding the fun in this hobby than proving I'm the best at knowing and manipulating the rules. Never will be a Magic player...
 
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Charles Waterman
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rickert wrote:
I've found Dominion has always played better if the exact rules for the game are followed. Not understanding the rules or forgetting them is probably unavoidable on occasion, but just deciding to ignore the rules seems like bad form to me.


Huh. This seems like a really good topic for a new thread. How far is it necessary to play a game exactly by the printed rules? When are "house rules helpful, and when do they destroy the nature of a game. For my $0.02, you're drawing that net quite a bit too tight, but then I admit this does merit more thoughtful discussion.

Montebanc (waxing serious for a moment about what is and isn't allowable.... but such is my nature at the stall, after all. *grin*)
 
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Charles Waterman
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DaviddesJ wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically?


Why the hell would anyone give you valuable stuff because you've got lots of cards "in play" in the first place? I think you're looking for "theme" in entirely the wrong place.


Msr. desJardins, I believe Msr. D. Stu has given me a thorough answer for that. 'Nuff said!

Montebanc
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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montebanc wrote:
rickert wrote:
I've found Dominion has always played better if the exact rules for the game are followed. Not understanding the rules or forgetting them is probably unavoidable on occasion, but just deciding to ignore the rules seems like bad form to me.


Huh. This seems like a really good topic for a new thread. How far is it necessary to play a game exactly by the printed rules? When are "house rules helpful, and when do they destroy the nature of a game. For my $0.02, you're drawing that net quite a bit too tight, but then I admit this does merit more thoughtful discussion.

Montebanc (waxing serious for a moment about what is and isn't allowable.... but such is my nature at the stall, after all. *grin*)


Go ahead and start a new thread if it interests you. For me, I have said all I need to say on the topic here. I desire to be a game player and not a game designer.
 
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David desJardins
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montebanc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically?


Why the hell would anyone give you valuable stuff because you've got lots of cards "in play" in the first place? I think you're looking for "theme" in entirely the wrong place.


Msr. desJardins, I believe Msr. D. Stu has given me a thorough answer for that. 'Nuff said!

Montebanc


Where? I must have missed the explanation of why vendors would give you stuff whose value depends on how many cards you have in play.
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D Stu
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DaviddesJ wrote:
montebanc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I don't get this. If "in play" only applies to "buying" then how does this kind of restriction make sense thematically?


Why the hell would anyone give you valuable stuff because you've got lots of cards "in play" in the first place? I think you're looking for "theme" in entirely the wrong place.


Msr. desJardins, I believe Msr. D. Stu has given me a thorough answer for that. 'Nuff said!

Montebanc


Where? I must have missed the explanation of why vendors would give you stuff whose value depends on how many cards you have in play.


Because the HoP looks prettier in this case...
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Nate S
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montebanc wrote:
I'm more interested in finding the fun in this hobby than proving I'm the best at knowing and manipulating the rules.

Manipulating? The word you're looking for is "following". Believe me, it will be extremely unfun for your friends if you create house rules on the fly in the middle of a game to stop them from doing something that is actually legal.

Nevermind that in this specific instance Grand Market is a much more fun card to play with by the actual rules - which allow you to look for clever ways like Horn of Plenty to subvert the no-Copper clause - than if you change the rules of the game because this kind of clever stratagem offends your sense of theme.
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Charles Waterman
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ghorsche wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I'm more interested in finding the fun in this hobby than proving I'm the best at knowing and manipulating the rules.

Manipulating? The word you're looking for is "following".


Nope. I meant manipulating, so I stopped reading there. Then I decided - hey I better give the guy a chance to switch into more civil discussion, which - hey - you did! Thanks. (There's a difference between writing "I'm not sure why you used the word manipulating" and straight out telling someone they don't know what word they want to use.)

I did mean manipulating, not following. I respect your respect for rules. In the timeless words of Boris the Animal, "Let's agree to disagree."

Montebanc
 
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Sean Rhoades
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"In play" pretty much covers each card face up in front of you during your turn that is NOT a part of your discard pile. This is a critical rule for several other Treasure cards, not just the Grand Market, in which order of play is essential. Our group maintains a four part tableau: Discard, Deck, Continuing effects, and cards revealed from hand. By revealing the Copper before obtaining the Grand Market, the prohibition on Grand Market is activated and the Horn of Plenty's special effect is nullified.
 
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Nate S
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montebanc wrote:
ghorsche wrote:
montebanc wrote:
I'm more interested in finding the fun in this hobby than proving I'm the best at knowing and manipulating the rules.

Manipulating? The word you're looking for is "following".


Nope. I meant manipulating, so I stopped reading there. There's a difference between writing "I'm not sure why you used the word manipulating" and straight out telling someone they don't know what word they want to use. If I misunderstood your approach and the rest of what you wrote was more two way communication, try again and I'll read it more carefully. Otherwise, I'll assume I know what was coming after those words, and I'll give you a silly wink and blow a merry old bronx raspberry in your general direction (with a smile).

Montebanc

Believe me, it was not lost on me that you meant to infuse your statement with all the rhetorical baggage associated with the word "manipulating". Since I found that rhetorical infusion to be in bad faith, I called you on it :shrug: If you won't engage an argument that calls you on bad-faith rhetoric, then man, I guess I don't want to engage you either!
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Nate S
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zedros wrote:
"In play" pretty much covers each card face up in front of you during your turn that is NOT a part of your discard pile. This is a critical rule for several other Treasure cards, not just the Grand Market, in which order of play is essential. Our group maintains a four part tableau: Discard, Deck, Continuing effects, and cards revealed from hand. By revealing the Copper before obtaining the Grand Market, the prohibition on Grand Market is activated and the Horn of Plenty's special effect is nullified.

This is wrong, period. You're not buying the Grand Market with Horn of Plenty (you're "gaining" it, which is different), and Grand Market's prohibition applies only to buying the card, not to gaining it by other means.


edit: It seems you are also confused about how treasure cards work. You don't just "reveal" the Copper, you play the Copper into the play area, and at the moment you play it you get $1 toward your stock of coins available for buying cards on the current turn. This is how all treasure cards work: You play the card during the buy phase, and it has some effect. The basic treasures just give you coins you can use to buy cards, but other treasure cards (like Horn of Plenty and Venture) have other effects at the moment you play them.
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Charles Waterman
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zedros wrote:
"In play" pretty much covers each card face up in front of you during your turn that is NOT a part of your discard pile. This is a critical rule for several other Treasure cards, not just the Grand Market, in which order of play is essential. Our group maintains a four part tableau: Discard, Deck, Continuing effects, and cards revealed from hand. By revealing the Copper before obtaining the Grand Market, the prohibition on Grand Market is activated and the Horn of Plenty's special effect is nullified.


Interesting comment, Sean. The designer posted the official rule at the top of this column - which means the way you and I have been playing it needs to be corrected. Apparently, Horn of Plenty acquisitions are not "buys" and therefore the owners of the Grand Market are blinded by the beauty and status of the Horn of Plenty and don't notice its splendor is due to at least one Copper in play. I *do* appreciate that description of it.

Montebanc
 
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Donald X.
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zedros wrote:
By revealing the Copper before obtaining the Grand Market, the prohibition on Grand Market is activated and the Horn of Plenty's special effect is nullified.

Grand Market doesn't care if you played a Copper this turn; it only cares about there being Copper in play at the moment you want to buy it. For example you could play a Woodcutter and 9 Coppers, buy a Mint, trashing all of those Coppers, then buy a Grand Market.
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