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Subject: Five Things We Learned From the Debate rss

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Ben Stanley
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1. When you put in a worse performance (both in office and in the debate) than Jimmy Carter, you make your challenger look like Ronald Reagan.

2. Mastery of facts, specifics, and details well organized and articulated with a compelling vision should -- and did -- determine the winner.

3. When you dominate on style and substance, you don't need to fill the most time.

4. Results and performance still matter in America. One statistic of interest was that Romney won the debate according to 67% of viewers - the highest victory percentage in the history of the question!

5. Romney can take on an incumbent president and the media simultaneously, stand by truth even as it is challenged by integrity-impaired fact checkers, and win the most decisive debate victory ever. He forces them to go back and admit their errors (Obama undermining the work requirement in welfare, cutting $716 billion from Medicare, etc.), rather than backing away from specific facts and figures that others want to bend and misrepresent against him.

So, in conclusion, a minute and a half of highlights. Yes, it was assembled by the winning side, but when you win a debate by the most convincing margin in the history of the question (no other presidential candidate has mustered above 60% consensus of victory immediately following a debate), I think maybe they are entitled to suggest a few moments for those who missed watching it . . .


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Rich Shipley
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I have to admit that Mitt Romney did a better job lying than usual.
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Xander Fulton
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Other things we learned by positive voter response to Romney's comments:

- America hates PBS

- America loves choking coal pollution and toxic fly ash spills

- Americans think the whole 'beautiful and serene national parks' thing is totally over-rated and would prefer to see oil slicks running all over it

- Americans tend to think that fabulously wealth oil companies totally deserve more tax breaks, and providing tax breaks on struggling startups doing work necessary for next-generation energy production is a terrible idea.

I'd hate to be a single-issue voter, and Romney's tax proposal is intriguing, but this whole "FUX0R THE ENVIRONMENT!" thing is really bothersome.
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Blue Steel wrote:
[fap fap fap]


FTFY
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Chad
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rshipley wrote:
I have to admit that Mitt Romney did a better job lying than usual.


what lying? Because the fact checks that I have looked over (NBCs and ABCs) had a couple of stretches (some significant) on both sides - but no overt lies.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/fact-checking-t...
 
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Chad Ellis
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I'd love to know what possible debate performance would have caused you to believe that Obama demonstrated greater mastery of facts, specifics, etc.

Your posts remind me of a friend who watched the debate with us and was shocked to hear that I thought Romney had won it. She's such a strong Obama supporter and loathes Romney, so it colored her perception of events.
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Xander Fulton
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Drew1365 wrote:
XanderF wrote:
I'd hate to be a single-issue voter, and Romney's tax proposal is intriguing, but this whole "FUX0R THE ENVIRONMENT!" thing is really bothersome.


Where was that in his proposals? I missed it.


From the debate transcript:

Quote:
On government land, your administration has cut the number of permits and licenses in half. If I'm president, I'll double them, and also get the -- the oil from offshore and Alaska. And I'll bring that pipeline in from Canada. And, by the way, I like coal.


Ah, yes, Exxon Valdez and Deepwater Horizon on *all* our coasts, AND through the middle of the country! Just what we need...
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Utrecht wrote:
rshipley wrote:
I have to admit that Mitt Romney did a better job lying than usual.


what lying? Because the fact checks that I have looked over (NBCs and ABCs) had a couple of stretches (some significant) on both sides - but no overt lies.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/fact-checking-t...


That link says pretty bluntly that Romney straight-up lied twice (about Obama wanting to cut Medicare by $716 billion and about 20 million people losing care under Obamacare).

(Of course, in the usual desperate attempt for balance, it also says that Obama's claim that Romney wants a $5 trillion tax cut is "mostly fiction" because Romney says, without giving any details, that it will be revenue neutral. By this standard, Romney can promise a unicorn in every home and so long as he doesn't give details about how they will genetically engineer the unicorns, you can't say he's full of crap.)
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Dave G
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
I'd love to know what possible debate performance would have caused you to believe that Obama demonstrated greater mastery of facts, specifics, etc.

Your posts remind me of a friend who watched the debate with us and was shocked to hear that I thought Romney had won it. She's such a strong Obama supporter and loathes Romney, so it colored her perception of events.


There are maybe a half dozen folks here I'd trust to give an honest, spin-free assessment of the debate and how it might affect people's perception of the candidates. Yourself. BJ. Dar. SpaceGhost. Kelsey. Um…probably a couple more I can't think of at the moment. Otherwise the "debate discussion" threads have been totally predictable and thoroughly boring.
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Xander Fulton
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But, then, his tax ideas are...still intriguing. For example, referencing that 'corporate welfare' to the oil companies Obama rightly criticized:

Quote:
But, you know, if we get that tax rate from 35 percent down to 25 percent, why that $2.8 billion is on the table. Of course it's on the table. That's probably not going to survive you get that rate down to 25 percent.


...I mean...really? He'd seriously cut off the oil subsidies for a lower overall corporate tax rate?

It does make me want to see the actual hard details of his plan. If he's willing (actually willing) to put sacred cows like that out on the block...
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Chad Ellis
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mightygodking wrote:
(Of course, in the usual desperate attempt for balance, it also says that Obama's claim that Romney wants a $5 trillion tax cut is "mostly fiction" because Romney says, without giving any details, that it will be revenue neutral.


This one struck me as odd, because I thought Obama said that Romney wants a $5 trillion cut in taxes which would be offset by closing loopholes and deductions and Obama then argued that this couldn't be revenue neutral because there just aren't enough deductions in existence if you're only hitting the top earners (as Romney has stated). Then the fact-checkers say that Romney's cut in rates would be $5 trillion but it's mostly a false claim because of the offset. Am I hallucinating and Obama didn't explicitly acknowledge (and challenge) the offset?
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I'd love to know what possible debate performance would have caused you to believe that Obama demonstrated greater mastery of facts, specifics, etc.

Your posts remind me of a friend who watched the debate with us and was shocked to hear that I thought Romney had won it. She's such a strong Obama supporter and loathes Romney, so it colored her perception of events.


There are maybe a half dozen folks here I'd trust to give an honest, spin-free assessment of the debate and how it might affect people's perception of the candidates. Yourself. BJ. Dar. SpaceGhost. Kelsey. Um…probably a couple more I can't think of at the moment. Otherwise the "debate discussion" threads have been totally predictable and thoroughly boring.


I wouldn't trust me, either. I don't know if it's bias or that a political junkie is a poor judge but I'm often very wrong about how I think people will react to a debate. I think it's because I'm more impressed by policy victories than things like sighing and body language. I may have gotten it right this time, but that's more like a broken clock than anything else.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
(Of course, in the usual desperate attempt for balance, it also says that Obama's claim that Romney wants a $5 trillion tax cut is "mostly fiction" because Romney says, without giving any details, that it will be revenue neutral.


This one struck me as odd, because I thought Obama said that Romney wants a $5 trillion cut in taxes which would be offset by closing loopholes and deductions and Obama then argued that this couldn't be revenue neutral because there just aren't enough deductions in existence if you're only hitting the top earners (as Romney has stated). Then the fact-checkers say that Romney's cut in rates would be $5 trillion but it's mostly a false claim because of the offset. Am I hallucinating and Obama didn't explicitly acknowledge (and challenge) the offset?


Well:

Barack Obama wrote:
Now, Governor Romney's proposal that he has been promoting for 18 months calls for a $5 trillion tax cut, on top of $2 trillion of additional spending for our military. And he is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions. The problem is that he's been asked over 100 times how you would close those deductions and loopholes, and he hasn't been able to identify them.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Am I hallucinating and Obama didn't explicitly acknowledge (and challenge) the offset?


He did basically let it slide. The tax cut Romney is proposing would be $5 Trillion (correct), and he argues he'd 'make up the gap' by 'closing loopholes', so it would still be 'revenue neutral'. Obama attempted to point out in passing that there weren't enough deductions in existence to make up a $5 Trillion cut, so he kinda missed the boat.

He didn't specifically note that the actual Romney proposal would not REALLY result in $5 Trillion in lost revenue ('closing loopholes', after all, would make up SOME of the gap), but that it would still be $Trillions less than needed.

He kept hammering the "$5 Trillion" number, which was just stupid once it was obvious Romney was going to flat-out deny it after the first time. And the number wasn't REALLY $5 Trillion, after all, but "~< $5 Trillion". Presumably by $281 million less than $5 Trillion - the Federal funding level of PBS.
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Dave G
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I'd love to know what possible debate performance would have caused you to believe that Obama demonstrated greater mastery of facts, specifics, etc.

Your posts remind me of a friend who watched the debate with us and was shocked to hear that I thought Romney had won it. She's such a strong Obama supporter and loathes Romney, so it colored her perception of events.


There are maybe a half dozen folks here I'd trust to give an honest, spin-free assessment of the debate and how it might affect people's perception of the candidates. Yourself. BJ. Dar. SpaceGhost. Kelsey. Um…probably a couple more I can't think of at the moment. Otherwise the "debate discussion" threads have been totally predictable and thoroughly boring.


I wouldn't trust me, either. I don't know if it's bias or that a political junkie is a poor judge but I'm often very wrong about how I think people will react to a debate. I think it's because I'm more impressed by policy victories than things like sighing and body language. I may have gotten it right this time, but that's more like a broken clock than anything else.


Oh, you might well be wrong. I just know you're not going to blindly insist that "your guy" won no matter what you actually saw. Obama could have ascended into heaven from the stage last night and returned with a pain-free solution to the deficit, a guarantee for a thousand years of world peace, and the promise of a life free from pain or suffering for every American and he-who-shall-not-be-named would still be trying to tell you that Obama is too stupid to speak without a teleprompter.
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If all it takes to win a debate is being cool, we're so screwed. Mitt Romney stood behind that podium last night and hand waved for 90 minutes.

Debt? - He's got a plan for that, AND he's going to cut taxes.
Medicare? - He's got a plan for that, AND he's not "cutting" 716B.
Defense? - Not cutting spending!

What the heck are these plans, and how are they mathematically possible?

I've read the full http://www.mittromney.com/jobsplan

The first 3 pages attack the Obama plan. Page 4 is the same as the "intro" page. Page 5 explains WHY the plan "will work", not how (increase growth). The rest is appendixes naming the studies done. Still nothing in there about exactly HOW he plans to achieve this. Feel free to correct me. As said above, this is all the same as promising a unicorn to all households by 2016.

I'm a registered Republican. I believe in fiscal conservancy. This Republican platform is not fiscally conservative no matter how much anyone pushes that idea. You cannot cut taxes and maintain spending and just hope that there will be economic growth that will make up the difference. It really is simple math, something this Republican platform is hoping none of us can perform. Its more complicated than this, but in essence, you'd have to increase the GDP by almost 30% to make up the difference in tax cut lost revenue. Analysts for Romney say that his plan will increase GDP by 3.5 to 4%, while no plan changes it increases by 1.5% anyway.

Closing loopholes is something all candidates want to do.


Vote Gary Johnson!
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
(Of course, in the usual desperate attempt for balance, it also says that Obama's claim that Romney wants a $5 trillion tax cut is "mostly fiction" because Romney says, without giving any details, that it will be revenue neutral.


This one struck me as odd, because I thought Obama said that Romney wants a $5 trillion cut in taxes which would be offset by closing loopholes and deductions and Obama then argued that this couldn't be revenue neutral because there just aren't enough deductions in existence if you're only hitting the top earners (as Romney has stated). Then the fact-checkers say that Romney's cut in rates would be $5 trillion but it's mostly a false claim because of the offset. Am I hallucinating and Obama didn't explicitly acknowledge (and challenge) the offset?


You have it right. Romney does some hand waving about offsets that can't possibly be true and gets away with it because he won't say what the offsets would be.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
I'd love to know what possible debate performance would have caused you to believe that Obama demonstrated greater mastery of facts, specifics, etc.

Your posts remind me of a friend who watched the debate with us and was shocked to hear that I thought Romney had won it. She's such a strong Obama supporter and loathes Romney, so it colored her perception of events.


I think the big problem was that Obama didn't have the same enthusiasm and he didn't counter Romney point by point. As Carville said, "Romney came with a chainsaw"

If Obama would have looked like he was interested in debating, it would have been at least a draw.

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All I see is both here and other places I "visit" on the Net the ObamaLickers are mostly saying they didn't care to watch or, like here, scrambling for anything they can dredge up and skew in order to self-reinforce their ideological convictions that Obama is near God-like in his magnificence.

I have no idea who will win the election. I do know that Obama has screwed the pooch and if re-elected he will also screw the goat.
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I love how Romney tried to flip the failure of trickle down economics (an approach that he is for) by referring to government spending as "trickle down government".

Has that been used before or was that a first usage that they were saving for the debates?
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Drew1365 wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
XanderF wrote:
I'd hate to be a single-issue voter, and Romney's tax proposal is intriguing, but this whole "FUX0R THE ENVIRONMENT!" thing is really bothersome.


Where was that in his proposals? I missed it.


From the debate transcript:

Quote:
On government land, your administration has cut the number of permits and licenses in half. If I'm president, I'll double them, and also get the -- the oil from offshore and Alaska. And I'll bring that pipeline in from Canada. And, by the way, I like coal.


Ah, yes, Exxon Valdez and Deepwater Horizon on *all* our coasts, AND through the middle of the country! Just what we need...


But how is that "FUXOR THE ENVIRONMENT"?


I have a feeling Romney could propose making a giant drill the size of Rhode Island, shaped like a penis, bore random holes with it all over the United States... and you'd still ask that question.
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DWTripp wrote:
All I see is both here and other places I "visit" on the Net the ObamaLickers are mostly saying they didn't care to watch or, like here, scrambling for anything they can dredge up and skew in order to self-reinforce their ideological convictions that Obama is near God-like in his magnificence.

I have no idea who will win the election. I do know that Obama has screwed the pooch and if re-elected he will also screw the goat.


Really? All I've seen from so-called Obama-lickers is much wringing of hands and "he handed away the election" histrionics.
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DWTripp wrote:
All I see is both here and other places I "visit" on the Net the ObamaLickers are mostly saying they didn't care to watch or, like here, scrambling for anything they can dredge up and skew in order to self-reinforce their ideological convictions that Obama is near God-like in his magnificence.



Everyone I talked to at work said something to the effect of "Debates are meaningless. I didn't watch it -- they are so boring. Etc. Etc."

 
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DWTripp wrote:
I do know that Obama has screwed the pooch and if re-elected he will also screw the goat.


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