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Magic: The Gathering» Forums » Rules

Subject: Crcrumbling colossus blocked by wall of tears rss

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Steve Austin
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What happens if the 7/4 'crumbling colossus' is blocked by 0/4 'wall of tears'? Does the colossus go back to owners hand or to the graveyard? Both cards have triggers. Who gets to choose the order they resolve?
 
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Jason Mackay
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I believe it would go back to the Attackers hand.

The Attacker is the active player, thus they have priority. As such, their creatures triggers would go on the stack first. With "Last-in, First-out" rules, the Wall of Tears trigger would be executed before the Colossus.

I haven't played in a few years though, so rules for combat triggers may have changed...

Post again if you get an official answer.
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Everett Scheer
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Both are triggered at the same time, so they go on the stack starting with the active player. In this case, the wall of tears goes on the stack last, and hence will resolve first, bouncing the colossus.
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Simon Tan
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Peepser wrote:
What happens if the 7/4 'crumbling colossus' is blocked by 0/4 'wall of tears'? Does the colossus go back to owners hand or to the graveyard? Both cards have triggers. Who gets to choose the order they resolve?


In this case, there is no choice. (If a player controls two or more such abilities, then he gets to decide how they go on the stack. Ditto with the other guy.)

If there are multiple triggers that would "apply" at the same time, they are put in the stack in Active Player, then Non-Active Player (APNAP for short.) For reference, the player whose turn it is is the active player.

As there is no card effect that allows a player to attack when it is not his turn, it is safe to say that the attacker is the active player. Thus, Crumbling Colossus' "sacrifice at end of combat" is put on the stack first, then Wall of Tears' "return to owner's hand at end of combat" goes on top of it.

Barring any other instants or activated abilities or other effects, Wall of Tears' triggered ability will resolve first, returning Crumbling Colossus to its owner's hand, then Crumbling Colossus' will try to resolve next, only to find it is not there any more, then nothing happens.

Quote:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.


NOTE: This is different from replacement effects, which sound like "If this creature would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into its owner's library instead." In this case, the controller of the permanent in question (or the player affected by such) gets to choose the order they go in the stack.
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Todd Pytel
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I lean towards the same answer as the above posters, but I'm not certain. The issue is that both of these are "delayed trigger abilities" - the effect doesn't occur immediately after the trigger. So, for example, the CC ability goes on the stack when the CC attacks. In the absence of some instant response, that ability will resolve. But that all happens before the combat actually takes place - the "sacrifice it" part just kind of hangs out there in space until the appropriate time. As I read the rules (603.7), that sacrifice effect isn't actually on the stack. So the problem in this particular case is that you've got competing delayed effects that are both supposed to happen at the same time. If those effects went on the stack, then I would definitely agree with the above posters - the active player puts effects on the stack first, so the Wall of Tears ability is on top and thus resolves first. But it's not clear to me from the rules that these delayed abilities operate in the same way, because the triggers were the parts that went on the stack and those have already resolved.

I'd go with "Wall of Tears bounces the Colossus" here, just because that maintains the same timing as you'd use for straight triggered abilities. But I'd definitely like to hear from an actual judge on this one, as I don't think the rules are terribly clear. This, by the way, is a good example of why WotC has moved away from printing many cards with delayed triggered abilities in modern times.
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Simon Tan
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tppytel wrote:
I lean towards the same answer as the above posters, but I'm not certain. The issue is that both of these are "delayed trigger abilities" - the effect doesn't occur immediately after the trigger. So, for example, the CC ability goes on the stack when the CC attacks. In the absence of some instant response, that ability will resolve...


Rule 603.7a answers this part for you...

Quote:
603.7a Delayed triggered abilities come from spells or other abilities that create them on resolution, or are created as the result of a replacement effect being applied. That means a delayed triggered
ability won’t trigger until it has actually been created, even if its trigger event occurred just beforehand.
Other events that happen earlier may make the trigger event impossible.


(603.3 tells us that when it triggers, then it goes on the stack.)

The bolded part means that a delayed triggered ability is an ability that creates another ability that occurs at the appropriate (and later) time. In the case of Crumbling Colossus, you can read it as "When Crumbling Colossus attacks, create an ability at end of combat that says "Sacrifice this creature."

The last line of 603.7a is actually a description of what happens here. The "other event" (Wall of Tears' delayed trigger ability) is what happened earlier to make the "trigger event" (Crumbling Colossus' delayed trigger ability) impossible.
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Todd Pytel
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Ah... I get it. So the abilities actually printed on CC and WoT aren't delayed trigger abilities... those are just regular triggered abilities that create the delayed trigger abilities. It all makes sense now. Thanks.
 
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