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Subject: Super-powerful space stations. rss

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the dare978devil
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One player upgraded his space stations twice, with -3 and -3 computers (2 of them), and 2 sets of missiles. He had just conquered the central hex, and placed 2 of these stations there. They were almost unbeatable! It meant he was rolling 8 dice, and hitting with anything over a 1. As it happens, he didn't roll a 1 so hit 8 times for 2 damage each time. Needless to say, my attacking fleet was obliterated.

I did have missiles on my two attacking cruisers, which fortunately both hit, destroying both of his stations. Effectively we obliterated each other. But he simply built two more stations on his next turn, whereas I could not possibly hope to replace my fleet that quickly. Other players tried to take the middle from him, but he bolstered his stations with high initiative missile-equiped Interceptors, and had sufficient 1st shot firepower to wipe out anything we threw at him.

The game ended with that player holding onto the center as no one could dislodge him from it.
 
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Petri Savola
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dare978devil wrote:
One player upgraded his space stations twice, with -3 and -3 computers (2 of them), and 2 sets of missiles. He had just conquered the central hex, and placed 2 of these stations there. They were almost unbeatable! It meant he was rolling 8 dice, and hitting with anything over a 1. As it happens, he didn't roll a 1 so hit 8 times for 2 damage each time. Needless to say, my attacking fleet was obliterated.

I did have missiles on my two attacking cruisers, which fortunately both hit, destroying both of his stations. Effectively we obliterated each other. But he simply built two more stations on his next turn, whereas I could not possibly hope to replace my fleet that quickly. Other players tried to take the middle from him, but he bolstered his stations with high initiative missile-equiped Interceptors, and had sufficient 1st shot firepower to wipe out anything we threw at him.

The game ended with that player holding onto the center as no one could dislodge him from it.

Missile starbases are strong, but not unbeatable. The easiest way to beat them is to send in a dreadnought with tachyon drive (or two, if you need the initiative), some computers and missiles. You'll beat the starbase initiative and destroy them before they get to shoot at all.

Another way is to send in dreadnoughts and cruisers filled with hull (and/or shields if opponent has +4 to hit or less). But you'll need loads of materials, actions and will suffer heavy losses if you do this, so it's more difficult to pull off and rarely a strong move.
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brendan b
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how many space stations can you have in a hex?
 
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Kwentn
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No limit on starbases per hex.
 
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the dare978devil
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Ah, based on these replies, we may have made 2 mistakes:

Petri,

We interpreted the missile rules to mean that they always fired first, regardless of initiative. So in our case, he fired his 8 missiles at the same time I fired my 4 missiles. The missiles crossed path in space, did their damage, and then initiative was taken into account. Is that not correct?

John Rowland,
I can't remember how we determined this, but we were playing with the rule that each player had a maximum of 4 starbases total, but could put them anywhere he owned (ie. 1 in each of 4 hexes, or all in a single hex if he preferred).

Thanks,
DD.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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dare978devil wrote:
Ah, based on these replies, we may have made 2 mistakes:

Petri,

We interpreted the missile rules to mean that they always fired first, regardless of initiative. So in our case, he fired his 8 missiles at the same time I fired my 4 missiles. The missiles crossed path in space, did their damage, and then initiative was taken into account. Is that not correct?

John Rowland,
I can't remember how we determined this, but we were playing with the rule that each player had a maximum of 4 starbases total, but could put them anywhere he owned (ie. 1 in each of 4 hexes, or all in a single hex if he preferred).

Thanks,
DD.


Ships fire missiles in initiative order. So probably his starbases fired first and all your ships died before they could return fire. This is defeated by added 4 +3 computers onto your ships with 1 missile upgrade each. Then you fire first and each missile kills a starbase before he fires. Armor doesn't really help at all during a missile war, until you can tweak and your opponent can't counter tweak his blueprints.

The only limit to starbases are the amount you have (4) and the fact that you can't move them once built (although you can rebuild destroyed ones).
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Kwentn
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dare978devil wrote:
John Rowland,
I can't remember how we determined this, but we were playing with the rule that each player had a maximum of 4 starbases total, but could put them anywhere he owned (ie. 1 in each of 4 hexes, or all in a single hex if he preferred).

Thanks,
DD.


You were playing it right. You are only limited to the number in your supply, 4 in play at a time.
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the dare978devil
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dlhammond wrote:


Ships fire missiles in initiative order. So probably his starbases fired first and all your ships died before they could return fire. This is defeated by added 4 +3 computers onto your ships with 1 missile upgrade each. Then you fire first and each missile kills a starbase before he fires. Armor doesn't really help at all during a missile war, until you can tweak and your opponent can't counter tweak his blueprints.

The only limit to starbases are the amount you have (4) and the fact that you can't move them once built (although you can rebuild destroyed ones).


Ah! So we did make a mistake! At least only 1, we were correct in the number of starbases. The entire game, we had missiles firing concurrently, and then took into account initiative for other weapons.

OK, so for your suggested strategy. It is mathematically possible, but seems to me very easy to counter. Consider :

Gluon computers - require 2 power, add 2 initiative, adds +3 to attack.

The starbases had 2 Gluons each, meaning require 4 power. They had 4 initiative to start, meaning 8 initiative. The missiles take no power and add no initiative. He had to have a Fusion Source to meet the Power requirement.

To counter those starbases, that would mean the Interceptor is out because it simply can't carry enough upgrades to get to 9 initiative.

The Cruiser : Initiative : Power requirement
Initiative : 1 : 0
3 Gluons : 6 : 6
Tachyon Drive : 3 : 3
Missiles : 0 : 0

Total 10 initiative, 9 power, only offensive weapon - missiles. Tachyon source is required (9 power).

So either the Cruiser or Dreadnought would do, although the Dreadnought is better since it can pack 2 missiles in the same config above. But the research requirement to achieve a ship of that nature is massive. You would need Gluon 16/8, T. Drive 12/6, T. Source 12/6, and Missiles 14/7 plus the cost of at least 2 cruisers for 10 build (16 for 2 Dreads). The defender on the other hand is only in for 6 build, Gluon 16/8, Missiles 14/7, and Fusion Source 6/4.

It seems the defender's strategy is still good because by the time I can build up ships powerful enough to wipe out his starbases, he can simply drop a few cruisers of his own in there to mop up after the starbases are destroyed. And since my ships can't have any advanced weapons on them (can't even add Plasma Cannons to the Dreadnought's extra space because wouldn't have the power for them), it would be a duckshoot with me never firing back.

DD.
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James Fung
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Obligatory:

Quote:
That's no space station...


To echo the above comments, against missiles, either have better initiative or enough hull to soak up damage.
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Zenjoy
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Another tactic I should point out is consider leaving him to hold the center and focus instead on taking out his extra territories. Just because the Mid-Hex is a Diamond doesn't mean you shouldn't go for the surrounding gems!
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neko flying
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Wormhole Generator.
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brendan b
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hmm...I kind of like the idea of all missiles being fired at the same time, and whoever is left standing calculates initiative.

It paints a much cooler picture in my head.
 
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Andrei Ivanesei
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brendanb wrote:
hmm...I kind of like the idea of all missiles being fired at the same time, and whoever is left standing calculates initiative.

It paints a much cooler picture in my head.


House rule no1 . From the first game. It just makes sense to fire all at the same time.
 
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Petri Savola
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dare978devil wrote:
So either the Cruiser or Dreadnought would do, although the Dreadnought is better since it can pack 2 missiles in the same config above. But the research requirement to achieve a ship of that nature is massive. You would need Gluon 16/8, T. Drive 12/6, T. Source 12/6, and Missiles 14/7 plus the cost of at least 2 cruisers for 10 build (16 for 2 Dreads). The defender on the other hand is only in for 6 build, Gluon 16/8, Missiles 14/7, and Fusion Source 6/4.

Starbases can reach 10 initiative with 3 gluon computers, but they cannot go higher than that. Dreadnoughts can pass that with 3 tachyon drives and 1 gluon computer + 2-3 missiles or 1 tachyon drive and 4 gluon computers + 1-2 missiles.

If you have ancient power source, which gives 11 power you'll be able to pack 1 extra missile component to your dreadnoughts. Otherwise you're limited to 1 missile component that hits with 2+ or 2 missile components that hit with 3+. Remember that you can use two fusion sources, so you don't really need tachyon source to do it. You don't even need gluon computers if you pack in 3 tachyon drives and 2 positron computers + 1 missile.

So attacker needs:
* Tachyon drive
* Plasma missile
* Positron computer (or better)
* Fusion source (or better)

Defender needs:
* Gluon computer
* Plasma missile

Defender doesn't need source, because he can use nuclear source.

Quote:
It seems the defender's strategy is still good because by the time I can build up ships powerful enough to wipe out his starbases, he can simply drop a few cruisers of his own in there to mop up after the starbases are destroyed. And since my ships can't have any advanced weapons on them (can't even add Plasma Cannons to the Dreadnought's extra space because wouldn't have the power for them), it would be a duckshoot with me never firing back.

Yes, defending is easy if you only have to defend one sector. If you're not the defender, you should try to avoid those situations.
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the dare978devil
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HolyGigi wrote:
brendanb wrote:
hmm...I kind of like the idea of all missiles being fired at the same time, and whoever is left standing calculates initiative.

It paints a much cooler picture in my head.


House rule no1 . From the first game. It just makes sense to fire all at the same time.


HAhahahaahahaha!

So, we are down to half a mistake now.... :-)
 
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the dare978devil
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Petri wrote:
Remember that you can use two fusion sources, so you don't really need tachyon source to do it.


I can honestly say I never thought about stuffing multiple power sources into a ship. Or multiple drives for that matter. Interesting.
 
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Kelvin Lau
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why do u have to beat those spacefailstations at all? go around? wormhole? backdooring? yet another omgicantbeatmissilesoverpowered thread?
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Simon Kamber
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lofung_hk wrote:
why do u have to beat those spacefailstations at all? go around? wormhole? backdooring? yet another omgicantbeatmissilesoverpowered thread?

As far as I can see, the only one talking about wtfoverpoweredmissiles is you. Everyone else is just discussing how to counter a player using missile starbases to hold the galactic center.
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Riku Riekkinen
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On the strategical level it seems to me your group is going to center much slower than I'm used to see. Plasma missiles & gluon computers is a very expensive combination. My suggestion is to go sooner to center with improved hull (or positron computer & missiles.. Mechanema).
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Kelvin Lau
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Dulkal wrote:
lofung_hk wrote:
why do u have to beat those spacefailstations at all? go around? wormhole? backdooring? yet another omgicantbeatmissilesoverpowered thread?

As far as I can see, the only one talking about wtfoverpoweredmissiles is you. Everyone else is just discussing how to counter a player using missile starbases to hold the galactic center.

essentially the same as why cant i beat the wtfoverpoweredmissiles mentioned by the op and some respondant. just because the wording is different doesnt divert the meaning. why do u have to directly confront the 'stationary station' at all? its exactly the same as people talking on how to walk over a hole in the middle of the road than to take a detour. not to mention taking detour prevents intentional feeding and yield more points proceeding on.
 
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the dare978devil
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lofung_hk wrote:
essentially the same as why cant i beat the wtfoverpoweredmissiles mentioned by the op and some respondant. just because the wording is different doesnt divert the meaning. why do u have to directly confront the 'stationary station' at all? its exactly the same as people talking on how to walk over a hole in the middle of the road than to take a detour. not to mention taking detour prevents intentional feeding and yield more points proceeding on.


As the OP, I was looking for strategies to counter those very powerful starbases. And I have it now! Furthermore, by posting I now understand we have been playing the game incorrectly, at least where missile initiative is concerned. Essentially, the starbases built in that manner have an innate weakness; they only fire once. If you can overcome the initiative advantage, then they never fire at all. So from my point of view, this thread has been very helpful. You, of course, are under no obligation to keep reading it ;-).

Yes, we all ended up going around the center, at least those of us who had Wormhole Generator. As it happened, I didn't, and that was my only path to any player. What I thought about was building a fleet big enough to move through the center, pinning only 2 of my ships. But long before I could attempt that strategy, I was attacked by a wormhole generating player to my left and that diverted my focus. I literally ran out of rounds before I could make another attempt on the center.

DD.
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the dare978devil
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Riku Riekkinen wrote:
On the strategical level it seems to me your group is going to center much slower than I'm used to see. Plasma missiles & gluon computers is a very expensive combination. My suggestion is to go sooner to center with improved hull (or positron computer & missiles.. Mechanema).


Yes, we have only just discovered Eclipse. I am pretty sure we are playing it far too conservatively as you should have seen the size of the fleet which attacked the center in the first game we played. Now at least the players attacking the center attempt it with far fewer ships, but yes, they are very likely vastly overpowered for what they actually need.

We haven't playing any games with other races yet, only humans. Once we can get our games down to 3 hours or so (all games thus far have lasted 5-6 hours), we'll add in alien races.

DD.
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lofung_hk wrote:
essentially the same as why cant i beat the wtfoverpoweredmissiles mentioned by the op and some respondant.


There is a big difference between "why can't I beat the wtfoverpoweredmissiles" and "how would you suggest dealing with missile starbases?". The OP represents the latter approach, which seems to me a perfectly reasonable question to pose in an Eclipse strategy forum.

It is (was) actually refreshing to see an thread discussing how to play against missiles (which IS a significant aspect of Eclipse strategy) that did not devolve into an argument over whether on not missiles are a problematic design.

Quote:
why do u have to directly confront the 'stationary station' at all? its exactly the same as people talking on how to walk over a hole in the middle of the road than to take a detour. not to mention taking detour prevents intentional feeding and yield more points proceeding on.


Sometimes, taking the center is the best approach. It denies opponents resources, gives you resources, yields a not-insignificant amount of VPs and may be your best (or only) route to where you need to go.

Either way, knowing what your options for taking the center are is vital if you want to judge whether or not attacking the center is your best move.

EDIT: Ok, reading the OP again I admit that it is probably closer to a missile complaint than I remembered it. I still think, however, that the absence of omgmissiles arguments in the rest of the thread is refreshing.
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Dulkal wrote:
EDIT: Ok, reading the OP again I admit that it is probably closer to a missile complaint than I remembered it. I still think, however, that the absence of omgmissiles arguments in the rest of the thread is refreshing.


It was meant to be a question, although I can see how you can read it as a whine (I am the OP). The single most important thing I learned from posting the question was that we were misplaying missiles. The starbases are maxed out in terms of initiative, there is no way they can go any higher. My ships, on the other hand, can. I can therefore move into that sector with 9+ initiative ships carrying missiles, and the starbases would not get off a shot.

Therefore, the heavy-offense starbases are certainly a strong defensive strategy, but they are by no means unbeatable.
 
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Peter O
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dare978devil wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
EDIT: Ok, reading the OP again I admit that it is probably closer to a missile complaint than I remembered it. I still think, however, that the absence of omgmissiles arguments in the rest of the thread is refreshing.


It was meant to be a question, although I can see how you can read it as a whine (I am the OP). The single most important thing I learned from posting the question was that we were misplaying missiles. The starbases are maxed out in terms of initiative, there is no way they can go any higher. My ships, on the other hand, can. I can therefore move into that sector with 9+ initiative ships carrying missiles, and the starbases would not get off a shot.

Therefore, the heavy-offense starbases are certainly a strong defensive strategy, but they are by no means unbeatable.


As a multiplayer game you can also team up on the starbases tactically. As the starbase scales up in Gluon computers, missile count goes down. So one player can go high initiative and another can go high hull/shield (or the same player can do this with different ship types, but that's a lot of actions and tech).

The player who then has the best matchup at the end of the turn is the one who goes in. The missile starbase guy is then in a bind of not being able to produce a build that both counters both opponents. (this can then be countered by the starbase guy introducing a different ship and build type to the defense).
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