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Subject: 2nd agriculture technology - Corn Harvest Tile question rss

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Ori Avtalion
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If you have the 2nd agriculture technology, can you harvest corn if only wood tiles are visible in an action space?
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daniele tascini
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SaltyHorse wrote:
If you have the 2nd agriculture technology, can you harvest corn if only wood tiles are visible in an action space?


With 2nd agriculture technology you can harvest corn from exhausted fields... that means anywhere there were corn tiles and then removed.

So, if you have only wood tiles visible, BUT still some EMPTY space (with all the tiles already removed), you CAN harvest from there.

If you have ALL the fields (the number depends on number of players) with wood tiles on (that means no uncutted field yet), YOU CANNOT HARVEST CORN.

EDITED:
This answer is wrong. The rule has been changed, see below.
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Vital Lacerda
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For what I read in the rules, you just burn the woods, decrease one step in any temple and take the corn.
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daniele tascini
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Yes, sorry, I wasn't clear.
I was just answering the question on the technology...of course you can always BURN the forest to get corn.
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Ori Avtalion
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Thank you for the clarification. It makes sense thematically since you still need the space to harvest, and the forests get in the way.

I'm very impressed with the rule book in general and appreciate the examples that show the thinking process of players, and the detailed turn summary at the end.

newrev wrote:
For what I read in the rules, you just burn the woods, decrease one step in any temple and take the corn.

Vital, sounds like I would also have to pay a CEP for all that burning
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Vital Lacerda
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SaltyHorse wrote:

Vital, sounds like I would also have to pay a CEP for all that burning

lol, well, maybe not. Forest biomass for energy is a good economic solution to generate green energy, since the forests are managed on a sustainable basis. Its essentially used for heat and cooking, so I don't think it will be need a CEP for that.
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Benjamin Kerenza
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dizzark wrote:
SaltyHorse wrote:
If you have the 2nd agriculture technology, can you harvest corn if only wood tiles are visible in an action space?


With 2nd agriculture technology you can harvest corn from exhausted fields... that means anywhere there were corn tiles and then removed.

So, if you have only wood tiles visible, BUT still some EMPTY space (with all the tiles already removed), you CAN harvest from there.

If you have ALL the fields (the number depends on number of players) with wood tiles on (that means no uncutted field yet), YOU CANNOT HARVEST CORN.


What effect does that have on the three/two player game where there is an empty field from the beginning?
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daniele tascini
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bjwells wrote:
dizzark wrote:
SaltyHorse wrote:
If you have the 2nd agriculture technology, can you harvest corn if only wood tiles are visible in an action space?


With 2nd agriculture technology you can harvest corn from exhausted fields... that means anywhere there were corn tiles and then removed.

So, if you have only wood tiles visible, BUT still some EMPTY space (with all the tiles already removed), you CAN harvest from there.

If you have ALL the fields (the number depends on number of players) with wood tiles on (that means no uncutted field yet), YOU CANNOT HARVEST CORN.


What effect does that have on the three/two player game where there is an empty field from the beginning?


Ok, I apologize for my mistake in the first answer... among the many changes made in the last days to the game rules, I forgot this one.
The 2nd level of agriculture technology was originally intended in the way I explained before, but it has been changed for gameplay purpose exactly for the reason you mentioned here.

It becomes confusing in a 2-3 players game what are the real empty fields, so the rule is changed in a way that YOU CAN ALWAYS HARVEST CORN WHERE THERE ARE NO VISIBLE CORN TILES, as the rulebook states, that means ALSO WHEN THERE ARE ONLY UNCUTTED FOREST TILES.

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Petr Murmak
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dizzark wrote:
It becomes confusing in a 2-3 players game what are the real empty fields, so the rule is changed in a way that YOU CAN ALWAYS HARVEST CORN WHERE THERE ARE NO VISIBLE CORN TILES, as the rulebook states, that means ALSO WHEN THERE ARE ONLY UNCUTTED FOREST TILES.


I want just stress out that 2nd agriculture technology is now very simple. You just don't need to take out Corn Harvest Tile to harvest corn there. No other conditions etc.
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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dizzark wrote:
SaltyHorse wrote:
If you have the 2nd agriculture technology, can you harvest corn if only wood tiles are visible in an action space?


With 2nd agriculture technology you can harvest corn from exhausted fields... that means anywhere there were corn tiles and then removed.

So, if you have only wood tiles visible, BUT still some EMPTY space (with all the tiles already removed), you CAN harvest from there.

If you have ALL the fields (the number depends on number of players) with wood tiles on (that means no uncutted field yet), YOU CANNOT HARVEST CORN.

EDITED:
This answer is wrong. The rule has been changed, see below.


I have played Tzolkin more than a couple of times now and our games have always been the same in one regard - the agriculture technology is essential. It always allows you to take corn not only from completely empty fields but also fields where there is still only wood.

This leads to a number of problems: The whole idea of scarcity is non-existent now. In our games (no matter who we played with) the only space that gets emptied (if at all) is the 4 space. Nobody takes away any wood or let alone corn tiles from higher field because THEY DON'T HAVE TO! The second problem created by this, is that the strategic depth of the game is reduced drastically. Since going to this step of the agricultural technology track is practically mandatory (you would become the only one to invest time and workers in removing wood to get corn - a futile effort) the temples become essential and other victory point sources become more or less meaningless. Due to this rule in the last 5 games with the "new" rules nobody built any buildings (or 1 max) because of the final benefit of the agric. track. This whole rule completely throws off the game.

And no wonder:

dizzark wrote:
among the many changes made in the last days to the game rules
(Emphasis added)

I wonder how much this "new" rule was playtested before it was changed.

I will therefore play it as initially suggested and then report back: The second agricultural technology step allows you to harvest from fields that have been completely emptied. (A field is one token space - not the whole 4 fields of a space) As long as there is solely wood visible - wood has to be taken. -- so if there is (in a 4 player game the constellation --corn/wood--corn/wood--corn/wood--empty/empty-- than corn CAN be harvested) EDIT: In the german rules set it is suggested under the Palenque action descriptions that the technology is meant to do even less and only provide corn if the WHOLE space has been emptied. It would be nice to get a clarification from Daniele to know how this was initially meant to work.

Why this is important:

This essentially allows you to harvest corn from 4 and 5 spaces very soon, even though they are empty then - which is in line with the other technological benefits in the second row and doesn't make it insanely strong. If people should get confused in 2 or 3 player games I will put small wooden houses on the fields --barns-- to denote which field have never been active in the first place. Should that rule get changed back in subsequent editions I suggest an additional little punchboard with "cover"-tokens

In my eyes, this rule change JUST in view of clarity for 2 or 3 player games was disastrous.
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daniele tascini
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benji_online wrote:

And no wonder:

dizzark wrote:
among the many changes made in the last days to the game rules
(Emphasis added)

I wonder how much this "new" rule was playtested before it was changed.

I will therefore play it as initially suggested and then report back: The second agricultural technology step allows you to harvest from fields that have been completely emptied. (A field is one token space - not the whole 4 fields of a space) As long as there is solely wood visible - wood has to be taken. -- so if there is (in a 4 player game the constellation --corn/wood--corn/wood--corn/wood--empty/empty-- than corn CAN be harvested) EDIT: In the german rules set it is suggested under the Palenque action descriptions that the technology is meant to do even less and only provide corn if the WHOLE space has been emptied. It would be nice to get a clarification from Daniele to know how this was initially meant to work.


Ok, I'll try to clear this issue.

- The actual ruel states that, with CROP ROTATION (2nd level of agriculture technology) YOU CAN HARVEST CORN EVEN WHEN THERE IS NO VISIBLE CORN TILES, that means that you can harvest corn where there is empty field (no more corn tiles) AND where there is only forest tiles visible (nobody harvested yet).

My original rule was more thematic, since you cannot harvest where there is forest still to cut... but for the gameplay purpose the rule works pretty well.
The rule has been playtested and the game is still well balanced.

BTW I don't know what german rules say but crop rotation rule was never meant to work that way. It was enough having one wood tile removed.

Quote:
This essentially allows you to harvest corn from 4 and 5 spaces very soon, even though they are empty then - which is in line with the other technological benefits in the second row and doesn't make it insanely strong. If people should get confused in 2 or 3 player games I will put small wooden houses on the fields --barns-- to denote which field have never been active in the first place. Should that rule get changed back in subsequent editions I suggest an additional little punchboard with "cover"-tokens

In my eyes, this rule change JUST in view of clarity for 2 or 3 player games was disastrous.


I have to disagree with this, the technology this way is slightly more effective but definitely not broken and far from being essential in the game.
There are several strategies in which you don't need to develop it and still have great chances to win the game.

I would just mention a few hints you can use in your next games to verify what I say:

- Extreme resources strategy. You quickly develop resources technology line and take tons of gold and stone from Yaxchilan to sell to the market to get corn. In this strategy you almost never place your workers on Palenque except maybe in the very beginning of the game or later on using fish if you really need corn immediatly. (consider that taking resources from yaxchilan also gives you a few corn that helps)

Quote:
... Nobody takes away any wood or let alone corn tiles from higher field because THEY DON'T HAVE TO! The second problem created by this, is that the strategic depth of the game is reduced drastically. Since going to this step of the agricultural technology track is practically mandatory (you would become the only one to invest time and workers in removing wood to get corn - a futile effort)


- This is totally wrong!
Another good strategy when going for building is cutting as much wood as you can on the forest, since most of AGE I buildings cost wood. And the only way of getting easily a huge amount of wood is taking the tiles from palenque (possibly with the wood bonus).
This way you are able to build several buildings early in the game quite easily, including farms that dastically reduce your need for corn.
The benefit of this can be maximized when in the game there are some monuments out like the one that gives you points for wood tiles and/or the one that gives you points for green buildings...

- Another thing to think about: since those strategies above are possible, it doesn't mean that or you follow one of those, or you NEED crop rotation. Because if 1 or 2 other players follow different strategies, immediatly more corn becomes available on Palenque, and you may not even need crop rotation, because there is plenty of corn tiles on the board.

Of course if all the players do the same thing this thing becomes critical... and for sure there will be games in which you really need to harvest corn.

Hope this helps
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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dizzark wrote:


Quote:
... Nobody takes away any wood or let alone corn tiles from higher field because THEY DON'T HAVE TO! The second problem created by this, is that the strategic depth of the game is reduced drastically. Since going to this step of the agricultural technology track is practically mandatory (you would become the only one to invest time and workers in removing wood to get corn - a futile effort)


- This is totally wrong!
Another good strategy when going for building is cutting as much wood as you can on the forest, since most of AGE I buildings cost wood. And the only way of getting easily a huge amount of wood is taking the tiles from palenque (possibly with the wood bonus).
This way you are able to build several buildings early in the game quite easily, including farms that dastically reduce your need for corn.
The benefit of this can be maximized when in the game there are some monuments out like the one that gives you points for wood tiles and/or the one that gives you points for green buildings...


Well I slightly disagree with you there... What I described was a situation that happened repeatedly with very different players. I was the only one building buildings ( since everybody else used the temples because of the technology track ) and I had plenty of wood by going on palenque ONCE and then only the resource wheel.

I don't want to infer that we are playing optimally yet or that we have explored the game deeper yet - but this is what happened repeatedly so far. I will play it in the "old" way tomorrow again, and then write here if the outcome changed significantly.
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Paul Grogan
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Just my 2p. Agriculture tech is good yes, but I've won many games without any tech advancement in it.
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Filip Murmak
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What I find really insteresting about Tzolkin is the fact that certain gears vary in their strength depending on how many players decide to pursue similar strategies. In one game you can see different gears crowded which make them better (or worse).

I believe that could be the reason for your conclusion that Agriculture is essential. As we've seen with many test groups, because of the constant need for corn to place workers and feed them, players tend to overvaluate corn, go for Agriculture and overcrowd Palenque gear. And that obviously leads to illustion of its necessity. Also that's why we've implement more ways to gain corn as the playtesting progressed, the initial prototype had no corn on teeth or extra corn at Yaxchilan gear.

There are plenty of effective ways to gain corn though. Exchanging resources through Uxmal is very effective, but it's slightly less obvious strategy than simple "go to Palenque with Agriculture".

Any strategy requires different approach to placing and removing workers though. And any strategy also varies depending upon number of workers you intend to gain. I still have in my mind the game where one of the testers won game with 3 workers, skull strategy and scored 125 points. My own personal favourite is using Uxmal to construct buildings with corn and possibly using action 5 to gain corn. I ususally get 5-6 workers and simply overcrowd Uxmal myself. Well unless I have a competitor with similar strategy.

One of the reason why we implement games to our private online system where we can test them is to collect data from many sessions and make a conclusions based on raw statistics, instead of relying on reports from testers. It was interesting to watch how the testers evolved from Palenque overcrowding to pursuing different strategies.
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that corn is essentially powerful with the inclusion of the agric. technology. I just think that the last minute rule change in favor of 2p and 3p playability has negatively influenced its importance I.e. made it more powerful. It will be interesting to see if the initial rules will change gameplay at tonight's session.
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Filip Murmak
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benji_online wrote:
Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that corn is essentially powerful with the inclusion of the agric. technology. I just think that the last minute rule change in favor of 2p and 3p playability has negatively influenced its importance I.e. made it more powerful. It will be interesting to see if the initial rules will change gameplay at tonight's session.


In fact it wasn't changed late in the development. We've evaluated and tested all the options but decided to use the one you know from the rules lately as it seemed the best solution.
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karel_danek wrote:
benji_online wrote:
Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that corn is essentially powerful with the inclusion of the agric. technology. I just think that the last minute rule change in favor of 2p and 3p playability has negatively influenced its importance I.e. made it more powerful. It will be interesting to see if the initial rules will change gameplay at tonight's session.


In fact it wasn't changed late in the development. We've evaluated and tested all the options but decided to use the one you know from the rules lately as it seemed the best solution.


I am now reporting from an almost finished game - and we can already see huge changes. And the reason is simple. Since you now HAVE to take one wood from a space regardless of the crop rotation technology - one corn opens up for another player who does not have this tech. A widely different game, and a much more dynamic one. Indeed crop rotation was not necessary at all, and it was a beautifully balanced and rich game so far. This is now a ten so far.

EDIT: finished - I was second by one point. This simple change that is responsible for the removal of at least one wood from a palenque action space regardless of technology is just so very important. ( in total - this was my sixth game)
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In the German AND in the English rules, it is only mentioned, that the 2nd agriculture technology is just used if all corn harvest tiles of one group have already been taken (all 4 fields/spaces of 1 group are empty).

English rules page 8 and 12:
http://czechgames.com/files/Tzolkin_EN.pdf

There is nothing written about the second option to harvest...
"where there is only forest tiles visible (nobody harvested yet)".

But if it is like this, there are 2 more question:

1) Does this rule makes "burning the forest" completely unnecessary and takes it out of the game?

2) If there are visible corn harvest tiles, can I still take them, even so I HAVE the 2nd agriculture technology? Just for the reason to annoy the other players who haven't got the 2nd agri. tech..

EDIT: I saw in the English rules (but not in the German ones) that I HAVE to take a corn harvest tile if it is available to get corn, even with the agri. tech..

Is it right?

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kackarschen wrote:
In the German AND in the English rules, it is only mentioned, that the 2nd agriculture technology is just used if all corn harvest tiles of one group have already been taken (all 4 fields/spaces of 1 group are empty).

English rules page 8:
http://czechgames.com/files/Tzolkin_EN.pdf

There is nothing written about the second option to harvest...
"where there is only forest tiles visible (nobody harvested yet)".

But if it is like this, there are 2 more question:

1) Does this rule makes "burning the forest" completely unnecessary and takes it out of the game?

2) If there are visible corn harvest tiles, can I still take them, even so I HAVE the 2nd agriculture technology? Just for the reason to annoy the other players who haven't got the 2nd agri. tech..

EDIT: I saw in the English rules (but not in the German ones) that I HAVE to take a corn harvest tile if it is available to get corn, even with the agri. tech..

Is it right?



1) Absolutely not - in fact in becomes an interesting option. (Whereas before it was MEH) If you have to harvest wood AT LEAST once - agri tech or not - then it might be an option for you to burn th wood and take the corn.

2.) If you see one you HAVE to take it.
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You missunderstood me. My "burning the forest question" was about:

benji_online wrote:
kackarschen wrote:


"where there is only forest tiles visible (nobody harvested yet)".




1) Absolutely not - in fact in becomes an interesting option. (Whereas before it was MEH) If you have to harvest wood AT LEAST once - agri tech or not - then it might be an option for you to burn th wood and take the corn.



I was talking about "nobody harvested yet", you were talking about "If you have to harvest wood AT LEAST once"

I guess it is very useless to burn the forest if you can use the 2nd agri. tech. to get corn even if you do not need to harvest wood.
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kackarschen wrote:
In the German AND in the English rules, it is only mentioned, that the 2nd agriculture technology is just used if all corn harvest tiles of one group have already been taken (all 4 fields/spaces of 1 group are empty).

English rules page 8 and 12:
http://czechgames.com/files/Tzolkin_EN.pdf



Please Daniele and the Murmak brothers, please correct your rulebooks.
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kackarschen wrote:

You missunderstood me. [...]
I was talking about "nobody harvested yet", you were talking about "If you have to harvest wood AT LEAST once"

I guess it is very useless to burn the forest if you can use the 2nd agri. tech. to get corn even if you do not need to harvest wood.


In fact I did not

What you describe is even more useless with the "original" rule.

What I mean is - that it is a useful option - seeing that you will have to take wood if no wood was taken before you can harvest corn (and that would be with or without the tech) than burning wood on a "fresh" space becomes ever so useful to get that corn - both for people that have the tech as well as people that don't.

I do agree, however, that apart from my quibble with the harvesting rule - there seem to be a lot of people that play this rule ENTIRELY wrong and not just in this "variant" - that I am very adamant about has not been playtested fully - as our plays suggest.
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I seem to have also misinterpreted this rule. From reading the rulebook, it seemed clear that in order to benefit from the Crop Rotation technology (2nd Agric. tech), the space in question would have to be completely devoid of corn/wood tiles.

This made sense, because if there were corn tiles still there, hidden beneath wood tiles, then you can already access them by burning the forest and angering the gods. The tech allows you to access corn when you otherwise cannot (not even by burning down forest).

I haven't played any other way, but philosophically (and mechanically) I strongly prefer the interpretation that we took from the rulebook - that you cannot get any real benefit from Crop Rotation unless the entire field is devoid of tiles.

However, if the rule is that with Crop Rotation you are allowed to take corn whenever there isn't a corn tile on top (either because the field is empty, or because there are trees in the way of all available corn), then I suppose I'll have to play that way. I prefer when all players play by the same rules - the official rules.

While most rules questions for this game have been clearly answered by the rulebook, this one is one that seems to come up every game, and is definitely not clearly answered by the rulebook (the rulebook kinda contradicts the actual rule). Unfortunate.
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I had the same problem in my first two plays. Pity I have played only twice!

That rule needs to be clarified as soon as possible!
(I played with the english version of the game, I don't know how it has been translated into italian).
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My preferences strongly align with Seth's, although I have no problem playing with an "unofficial" rule.

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