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Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: Runner vs. Corp rss

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Trent Y.
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Does anybody else find that the base runner deck is a little hard to win with? I've not seen the runner deck win in three games.

I've not altered the base runner deck at this point, only because I've been teaching the game to new players and want them to see the basics and go from there.

But so far, my experience is that the runner decks have some important flaws. Hard to get a solid ice breaker and/or money.

 
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Sky Zero
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Sarimrune wrote:
Does anybody else find that the base runner deck is a little hard to win with? I've not seen the runner deck win in three games.

I've not altered the base runner deck at this point, only because I've been teaching the game to new players and want them to see the basics and go from there.

But so far, my experience is that the runner decks have some important flaws. Hard to get a solid ice breaker and/or money.



Find a better opponent and play more games. I've gotten my butt handed to me playing against experienced runners.
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Jefferson Krogh
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Using the base Shaper and Jinteki decks, the runner seems to win far more than he loses. Just another data point.
 
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Double Plus Undead
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Sarimrune wrote:
Does anybody else find that the base runner deck is a little hard to win with? I've not seen the runner deck win in three games.

Which runner deck? There are three of them...

Netrunner plays so differently than other games, it takes most players a few games before they can start to wrap their head around it.

Quote:
But so far, my experience is that the runner decks have some important flaws. Hard to get a solid ice breaker and/or money.


What's wrong with the icebreakers? What do you consider "solid"?

(I agree that it is often hard for the runner to get money, but this is balanced by the fact that it is also hard for the corp to get money.)
 
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Ian Toltz
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I've seen people claiming that if anything the current card sets favor the runner.

In my experience, the sides are quite balanced.
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Mike Stevens
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I have played about 30 games and about 10 of them were just with the core decks. I think I won 4 out of 5 games when I was the Runner playing with the standard Shaper deck.

I think they are fairly balanced but it is a little easier for new players to win with the standard Runner decks.

Keep playing, once this game CLICS for you and your friends you will be hooked and be able to play both sides with equal skill.
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Paul Grogan
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Hi Trent. Winning as runner can appear tricky, just remember you don't need an icebreaker to win... If he ices up a server and has a few credits, and you know it is probably an ice that will end the run, then run it!

Was it a wasted action? No. Draining the corp of money is key. So, yes, you spent a click and got nowhere, maybe you even took a bit of damage or lost another click. Whatever. The corp is now X credits less than he had. Keep running, force him to Rez ice, keep his money low. He will spend so much time protecting R&D, often HQ and also archives (against Noise or Sneakdoor Beta), that also protecting remote servers will be tricky for him.
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Asmor wrote:
I've seen people claiming that if anything the current card sets favor the runner.

In my experience, the sides are quite balanced.


The sides are fairly balanced, but there is a significant advantage for the runner in constructed play

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AugMiPlH3rBAdGp...
 
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Double Plus Undead
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Hi Trent. Winning as runner can appear tricky, just remember you don't need an icebreaker to win... If he ices up a server and has a few credits, and you know it is probably an ice that will end the run, then run it!

Was it a wasted action? No. Draining the corp of money is key.

Also, that means you now know what kind of ice it is, so you can better plan your next run on that server (and search for the appropriate icebreaker with Special Orders, etc.)
 
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Bruno Kristensen
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I played this game for the first time yesterday.

Both me and my opponent have some experience with Magic and similar games, so despite some differences in mechanics, the concept of Netrunner was not completely alien.

We played three games: Runner (Shaper) 2 - Corp (Jinteki) 1

First game, I was the corp, and I made some (rookie) mistakes, such as creating too many remotes that I couldn't defend properly.

Second game, we changed sides and I was the runner. Got Flatlined by round 4 or 5, because I encountered a Snare! in the R&D and didn't have enough cards in hand to deal with the damage.

Third game, because I died so quickly in the second game, I was the runner again. It was more equal, because we had a better grasp on the game, and I utilized three Modded to beat his very well defended remote, stealing a 3-point agenda.

So all in all, I think the decks are more or less balanced, but more games will tell.
 
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Trent Y.
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Thanks for some of the advice, but I know the tactics of Netrunner from the original game.

Every game, when presented to new players, needs to be fun enough to hook them into the game. When a game appears very one-sided, in my experience for the runner, then that will put many players off.

I did play and love the original netrunner. I'm a fanboi, so convincing me isn't the required argument. And seriously, telling me to play more games or find better players (WTF?!?!) is of no help.

I'm finding it hard to convince new players to dive in. I had two friends who picked it up and in two games the runnner was crushed. One of those games he was beaten in 2 rounds (by the trap card that caused 3 net damage). I mean, sure, go ahead and call him a noob (which is very unhelpful) but he was brand new to the game, didn't know that card was in the game. Now that he knows it's in the game, yes, he can deal with it. But that is NOT the point.

The point is, getting crushed in two games was not exactly fun for him. He's gunshy of this game. And I can't blame him.

So you all say that the runner is more powerful. I totally and completely disagree. Not from a brand new player point of view.


 
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This is not Snakes and Ladders. Decisions have consequences, and those consequences are not random; that's part of why the game is so awesome, and why player skill actually matters.

Sure, getting blown out by Snare in an early game sucks. Getting blown out by Snare in a later game sucks, too. But without consequences like that, the hidden information poses no threat, and your decisions have no consequence. It is a very necessary part of the game.

And truth be told, if getting crushed in your first few games deters a person, they were never actually going to be a serious Netrunner player anyway. Some people rise to a challenge, other shy away. The first kind will buy the expansion packs, whereas the second will not. Don't expect FFG to go out of their way to accommodate that second kind of player.

Edit: With an attitude to risk like that, does it surprise anyone that I play EvE?
 
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James Buchanan
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Ah, well now you're problem is more clear. The Shaper vs. Jinteki is pretty good with two brand new players. But if you want to give a new runner player a chance to experience the game I recommend you play Weyland execpt replace the Scorched Earth cards with closed accounts (and maybe Archer with Roboturret). This way win or lose the runner will get to play a whole game and make a lot of runs vs. ICE to learn the rules well.

Then when it's there turn to be the corp give them a standard Weyland, so they'll be familiar with most of the cards, but it will just work better. Then they'll get to learn the rules about damage as they flatline you: Much more fun.

Yes, it's a bit of a handicap, but experience counts for a lot in netrunner so a little handicap is fair for the first couple of game.
 
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Drew Dallas
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You know when you are teaching someone the game it is perfectly fine to give them pointers like:
Don't run on your last click.
Clear your tags.
Make sure to run with a full Grip as often as possible.

If you make them aware of these good tips then when they are learning and get flatlined by a Junebug or Snare because they ran with 2 cards in hand then it becomes a learning point for them instead of a frustration point.
 
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Noah D

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New players are going to have to learn about Snare! Junebug etc. at some point. I think starting with Shaper Jinteki is great for getting that out of the way right off the bat.

If their exerpience learning about these things was a bad one though, that's really on the teacher's shoulders, sorry. When I first taught the game, before we began I pulled out Snare and Junebug and showed them to him. I told him "If I have 4 credits, don't run with less than 3 cards in hand," "If you run an advanced card, make sure you have 2x the number of advancement counters cards in hand" "Don't end a turn with zero cards in hand" (Showing him Neural EMP)

And I also told him "Barriers and Code Gates will usually stop you but won't hurt you. Sentries may. (Showed him Neural Katanna) Be careful running until you have something that can break sentries."

I think it's only fair to tell this to a new player upfront, because without this kind of information it's impossible for them to make good decisions in the game. You can't go over every card in your deck, but you can at-least make sure they know about the nastiest ones they might encounter on a run.

We played our game, and I won, but he scored some points, didn't flatline, and certainly didn't go away with the impression that the sides were imbalanced or the runner is incapable of winning.

As teacher it's entirely in your hands to shape their first impression, don't blame the game.
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James Buchanan
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That could work Noah, but it's a lot of information to front-load a player with on top of the rules they need to actually play. True the Jinteki deck teaches them a lot about net damage, but it fails to cover much about traces, tags, bad publicity, or brain damage. No matter what corp deck you start with your going to be missing a large part of the game. Jinteki however is most likely to create an extremely short game that gives a poor impression of the game.
 
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Noah D

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I think that's great though that you can use the different decks to teach the different facets of the game. I don't think it's too much information to show them 3 cards, Snare, Junebug, and Neural Katana before the start of the game. They need to know that Ice can hurt them if they can't break it. That a card they access can blow up in their face, and that the agenda in a remote server might not be an agenda after-all.

Then they realize that their hand is their health, and that running is entering enemy territory. You don't want to run into the enemy base with one point of health left...

If you do this, they'll be careful. They may be too careful, costing them the game, but they will realize that as they see how the game plays out. If you don't give them any heads up whatsoever, then yeah, they're going to flatline before turn 4 almost guaranteed.

If you showed them Junebug in advance, and they run one and die the response is going to be "Damn! I was SURE that one was an agenda... nicely done."
If you did not, the response will be "WTF, you kidding me?"
 
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Noah D

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And just to be clear James, I think your idea of running a toothless Weyland vs them in the first game sounds like a pretty good idea as well. But I did want to share my success just going the Shaper Jinteki route with a bit of a heads up and some advice to the Runner in advance.
 
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James Buchanan
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argus88 wrote:
And just to be clear James, I think your idea of running a toothless Weyland vs them in the first game sounds like a pretty good idea as well. But I did want to share my success just going the Shaper Jinteki route with a bit of a heads up and some advice to the Runner in advance.


Well, how reasonable. I guess it depends on the sophistication of the player that I'm introducing in terms of how many other similar games they've played.
 
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Darksbane wrote:
You know when you are teaching someone the game it is perfectly fine to give them pointers like:
Don't run on your last click.
Clear your tags.
Make sure to run with a full Grip as often as possible.

If you make them aware of these good tips then when they are learning and get flatlined by a Junebug or Snare because they ran with 2 cards in hand then it becomes a learning point for them instead of a frustration point.

Totally -- you can teach all the basic strategy in probably about ten minutes at most.

The funny thing is I regularly violate all of those rules but that's in large part because I rarely play against generic decks. The only generic thing I still have to always be on the lookout for is Scorched Earth.
 
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Noah D

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AstroLad wrote:
The funny thing is I regularly violate all of those rules

The first step is knowing the rules. The next step is knowing when to break the rules*...

*DISCLAIMER: Rules here is used to mean general principals of solid Runner strategy, as was being discussed in the quoted text. This post in no-way endorses actual rule-breaking
 
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