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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Thief skills: Greedy + Lurk rss

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Darren Nakamura
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Greedy wrote:
Action: Search a search token within 3 spaces of you.

Lurk wrote:
Exhaust this card during your turn to perform a search action; this does not require an action. While this card is exhausted, add 1 additional brown die to your defense pool.

So on my initial reading of the Thief Class's abilities, I assumed that these could be used in conjunction with one another. However, upon closer inspection, Lurk instructs the player to perform a search action, and Greedy technically isn't a search action. So just like Combining Berserker abilities: Charge + Rage or Counter Attack + Rage?, it appears that Greedy and Lurk cannot be used together. What do you guys think?
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David Wann
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I would have to agree with you.

However, does Appraisal work with Lurk?
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Kelly Overholser
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Correct; Lurk lets you do a normal search action on an adjacent token without using an action, but Greedy isn't a search action, so it can't be used with Lurk.
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Darren Nakamura
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Obi Wann wrote:
I would have to agree with you.

However, does Appraisal work with Lurk?

Appraisal wrote:
After you draw a Search card, you may discard it to draw a new Search card. You must keep the second card.


I would say yes, because it doesn't mention a search action. Whether you use a search action or you use Lurk, you draw a search card either way. At that point, Appraisal comes into effect.
 
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Bryann Turner
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Really?

They seem like it would work to me.

"Does not require a search action" doesn't mean "can't be used with a search action"

Greedy grants a search action, it just happens to be one from 3 or less spaces away.

I think these would work.
 
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Andy Mills
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Greedy doesn't grant a search action, Greedy grants a Greedy action. Granted, it has many similarities to a search action, but they are not the same.

Lurk grants a search action, which states to pick up a search token on or adjacent to your space. Greedy doesn't even enter into it.
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Bryann Turner
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Seems silly to differentiate a Search Action from an Action: Search...

The outcomes are identical. Each action only produces one result: a search token is removed and the card given.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Here are the actions available to the heroes:

Move
Attack
Use a Skill
Rest
Search
Stand Up
Revive a Hero
Open or Close a Door
Special

Rules as written and strictly interpreted, Greedy counts as a "Use a Skill" action that results in searching, where Lurk specifically instructs the player to perform a "Search" action.

I wonder if this is FAQ-worthy, because it really seems to me like a Thief should be able to combine them, despite that the rules as written don't allow it.
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Andy Mills
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Yes, the outcomes are the same, but the setups are different: there are restrictions on each. The "search" action requires one to be adjacent to the token. The "Greedy" action requires one to be a Thief. One works with Lurk. One does not.

It's no sillier than differentiating the "attack" action with the "Rage" action (and I don't happen to think that's silly at all).
 
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Alexander Einich
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Dexter345 wrote:
Greedy wrote:
Action: Search a search token within 3 spaces of you.

Lurk wrote:
Exhaust this card during your turn to perform a search action; this does not require an action. While this card is exhausted, add 1 additional brown die to your defense pool.

So on my initial reading of the Thief Class's abilities, I assumed that these could be used in conjunction with one another. However, upon closer inspection, Lurk instructs the player to perform a search action, and Greedy technically isn't a search action. So just like Combining Berserker abilities: Charge + Rage or Counter Attack + Rage?, it appears that Greedy and Lurk cannot be used together. What do you guys think?


Methinks that, allowed or not, using both skills together is tactically really, really weak. shake

The point of Lurk is to be able to search without using an action. By using Greedy while using Lurk, the hero completely negates the effect of Lurk except for the brown die, as he would search while using an action (Greedy takes an action, there is no way around that). If he's too far from the token for Lurking, why not use the action he wants to waste using Greedy by walking to the search token, Lurk, and then go somewhere else with his remaining movement points?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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The idea of combining the two skills would be that you would be able to search a token within 3 spaces of you without spending an action.

Yes, Greedy is an action. So is regular searching. Lurk breaks the rule that regular searching costs an action, and the point of this thread was to question whether Lurk could also break the rule that Greedy is an action, because Greedy results in a search token being searched.
 
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Rom Brown
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Separating "basic actions" from skills and events that produce basic-action-like effects seems to be one of the main points of confusion in the D:2e system.

I can't say it's a 'big problem' with the system, just that it's something to be aware of and being able to quickly recognize the difference can take a while to "click".

There are the occasional "exceptions to the rule" that possibly create seeds of doubt in some when trying to decipher an actions issue at hand.
For example, monsters getting 1 attack action per turn, with it's clause: if a monster has a special action that lets the monster attack - this attack counts as it's 1 attack action.

 
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The problem is that without being able to combine with Greedy, Lurk is probably worth 1 point instead of 3, MAYBE 2. Most of the time, Search tokens are out of the way - that's the whole point of them, you're trading off short-term tactical advantage for long-term benefit. I haven't seen a board so far where all the search tokens are placed directly in the middle of the rooms the heroes are running through.

The thief's basic ability relieves that pressure a bit. For most characters, searching will take a full turn - (most of) a move action to get to the token and get back to where you want to be, plus an action to search. Greedy says, you can save those spaces moved - occasionally saving you as much as a full action, which no longer has to be spend on moving.

That means that for your three-point skill, you now lose that ability. Often, you will be spending either an action, or 2-4 stamina, in order to get that "free" search for Lurk. Compare this to Bushwhack - which you definitely have to set up to use, but which isn't going to cost you anywhere near an action for your "free" action. (Now compare it to the Runemaster 3-point ability which is a straightforward free attack every turn.)

(Of course, Lurk also gives a brown defense die - but it's such a small bonus (especially by the cusp of act II, when you have enough XP for Lurk) that I can't imagine anyone really cares.)

Disciple and Necromancer have have abilities which build heavily on their basic ability, and Wildlander's basic also gets enhanced later on. Berserker has a similar conundrum - later abilities can conflict with his basic - but 1. combat is a much more varied part of this game than searching, and 2. Death Rage is already a highly circumstance-specific action; when it works, you're happy to have both it an Rage.

If it can combine with Greedy (and as written, it clearly can't) Lurk is a great ability. If it can't, it should lose the brown die bit and become a 1-point ability... as such, it'll still probably never be taken.
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