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Subject: This game needs some re-balancing rss

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Tony L
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After playing a few rounds of this game, where the rebels were completely and utterly outclassed, I'm kind of fed up. I love the theme, I love the minis, I love the mechanics, but I just don't see how the Rebels can pull together a win. Things seem entirely too stacked in the Empire's favor, and I'm really not sure how to adjust it to even approach a 50:50 win rate.

My thoughts:
Here's the thing. Rebel ships cost WAY more than comparable Imperial ships. Rebel ships are SIGNIFICANTLY worse than the difference in points would suggest. In a game where the entire scenario is balanced based on the number of points fielded, this leads to an escalating amount of problems for the Rebel Alliance.

Problem 1: X-Wing and Tie fighter are completely balanced when attacking/defending.
I'll be referring to this chart:
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1420608/star-wars-x-wing-mini...

If you take a look, basic X-Wing attack is 3 dice. Basic Tie dodge is 3 dice. Average damage is ~0.6. Basic X-Wing vs an evading TIE results in 0.5 damage.

Basic TIE attack is 2 dice, and basic X-Wing defense is 2 dice. Results in 0.5 damage. Basic TIE attack vs X-Wing with focus results in 0.25 damage.

This is a problem, considering the basic X-Wing costs 21 points, and the basic TIE fighter costs 12 points. So 2 TIEs worth 24 points go against a single X-Wing, resulting in 6 hull versus 5, doing 0.75 points of damage per turn vs 0.5 points of damage per turn. So, figure it takes almost 6 shooting turns for a single X-Wing to blow up a single Tie fighter, while in 6 turns, the 2 TIE fighters will have done 4.5 damage. So the X-Wing gets 2 turns to do damage, handing out an average of 1 damage, and the last TIE blows up the X-Wing and escapes with 2 more hull.

Focus firing is important in this game, but it is equally as important for both sides. Since the Empire gets a numerical advantage from the start, this means they start the game ahead.

Notice, this scales RAPIDLY out of proportion when you factor that if 2 X-Wings fire at a single TIE, it's 42 points of value firing at 11 points. 4 TIE fighters (6 points of upgrades for the Rebels won't change anything here) firing against 1 X-Wing will blow it up considerably faster than a 2 X-Wings will blow up even 2 TIEs. 2 X-Wings need an average of 3 shooting turns to blow up 1 TIE. 4 TIEs need an average of ~3 shooting turns to blow up 1 X-Wing. So in the time it takes the 4 TIE fighters to blow up 1 X-Wing, only 1 TIE fighter is going sky-high. 3 TIE fighters are even more well equipped to take out a single X-Wing than 2.

This is bad news.

Again, think of this - your 1 X-Wing fires on a TIE fighter with evade. You average 1 point of damage every 2 turns of shooting. That TIE returns fire, doing the exact same amount of damage to you.

But I can use my focus to defend against his attacks! Ah, you forgot about his Wingman, who gets to use his focus offensively, since he is in no danger of return fire from you (remember that TIE's move after you, and therefore, are better equipped to decide whether to barrel roll, evade, or focus). Defensive focus basically cuts average damage in half. Without your defensive focus, the offensive focused TIE averages 1.2 damage per turn. So saving your focus for him cuts 0.6 damage, compared to just cutting 0.25 damage from the first TIE.

You take 1.1 damage/turn, and dish out 0.5 damage/turn. You have less hull. You are less maneuverable. You lose.

6 turns to kill one. 5 turns to die.

Consider that if an X-Wing could attack twice, even then, it's still outputting LESS damage than the 2 TIEs. Assuming it saves its focus for defense, 2 attacks on the same target will yield about ~1.2 damage per turn, which is 0.1 damage more than the TIEs output.

That's pretty crazy.

Problem 2: TIE Fighters are more Maneuverable
If we just started from the above problem, we'd already run into balance issues. However, on top of that, TIE fighters are more maneuverable than X-Wings.

Since you are operating from a numerical disadvantage, it is absolutely imperative that you stay outside of a dog fight. If you close to range 1, you get 1 bonus attack die, to your opponents 2 bonus attack die. On top of that, the only TIE you can attack will definitely have an evade, whereas you will only have your (inferior) defensive option against *one* of the enemy fighters.

As you can see, controlling the fight distance is *mandatory* for a rebel victory. Unfortunately, since TIE fighters are faster, more maneuverable, and can barrel-roll to help for mistakes in flying, AND get to move after your basic X-Wings, so they can better choose to barrel roll or evade, you start to see how a basic X-Wing vs 2 basic TIE fighters is a losing battle.

Problem 3: Y-Wings Are Horrendous
Y-Wings are so bad that it's not even funny. At 18 points, they are fully 6 points more expensive than a TIE fighter. For that, you get equal attack dice, 2 less defensive dice, no barrel roll, no evasion, but a total of 8 hull. They are a worse ship, for MORE points.

Unfortunately, that 8 hull "advantage" is basically non-existent. Consider a single Y-wing vs a single TIE. a TIE will average 0.75 damage per turn. The Y-Wing will average basically zero damage. 2 attack dice vs 3e is basically a never hit. You have to have them roll THREE BLANKS just to do ONE damage to them, if you roll a perfect 2 damage. They laugh at your damage, and can pretty safely ignore you all game. Meanwhile, they can pepper away at you at will. If they close to range 1, they average over 1 damage per turn. 8 shooting turns to blow you up, when they can easily remain outside your fire arc because the maneuverability disparity is even greater here.

Your Y-Wing is 6 points more expensive than a TIE fighter, and it is a worse ship, in every single capacity.

So take an Ion cannon, you say. Well, now you're up to 23 points on the Y-Wing. This brings you back to the issue of the X-Wing vs 2 TIE fighters. Now the Y-Wing is at a ridiculous disadvantage. 2 basic TIE fighters will shred apart a Y-Wing, and pretty much laugh at its damage out put. They average a killing blow in 4 turns, whereas if the Y-Wing hits literally every single turn, at BEST, it can kill both TIE's in 6 turns. Considering how difficult it is to hit a 3+e with just 3 dice, and how worthless at defense the Y-Wing is, that Y-Wing is basically going to do nothing.

A single Y-Wing with an Ion cannon is a helpful thing to have. However, the point value makes it REALLY hard to recommend. If the Y-Wing cost 12-13 points at base, or the Ion cannon cost 2-3 points, they would be much more useful, especially because the ion negative effect makes focus fire on the following turn much easier to plan. Double that if the Y-Wing manages to Ion blast a ship that performed a stressful maneuver.

CC has a lot of value, especially considering the Ion cannon is the only form of CC in the game. However, 5 points is just too much for only being able to do one point of damage at a time.

Problem 4: Rebel upgrades are more expensive than their counterparts
Consider that Backstabber at 16 points is, for all intents and purposes, an X-Wing for 5 less points. He's much more maneuverable, he's equally as hard to kill, and 3 attack dice on a naked 2 defense dice averages more damage than a 3 attack dice roll on a naked 3 defense dice.

This is repeated throughout the cards. Backstabber is a MASSIVE upgrade to the base TIE. For 4 points.

Wedge Antilles, probably the best elite pilot, is a HUGE upgrade to the base X-Wing. Being able to knock the defense die down by 1 is an absolutely ridiculous advantage. However, he costs a full EIGHT points more than a base X-Wing. 13 points more than Backstabber. Backstabber+Basic TIE+any of the two point upgrades vs Wedge with no upgrades? Imperials win every time, I'd say. I mean Backstabber vs Wedge is almost an equal fight, considering Backstabber is much more maneuverable, and they basically do the same amount of damage to one another, only Evade is a stronger defensive option than Focus. Wedge has to be *double* the value in difference between a base X-Wing and himself in order to compete with the value added from a base TIE to Backstabber.

Dutch is another great pilot. He makes using proton torpedoes considerably easier. However, you consider that he's already 5 points more than the base Y-Wing. The base Y-Wing is already over priced. The ION cannon costs an additional 5 points, and is the only way for a Y-Wing to be offensively viable, and is also overpriced. So for 28 points, you're getting a ship that is LESS offensively capable than even a base TIE, and is pretty much one of the easiest ships in the game to blow up.

If you want to take advantage of the target locking capabilities that Dutch brings to the table, you bring proton torpedoes. Unfortunately, fully stocking him requires an additional 8 points. A whopping 36 point ship that will likely kill 2 11 point ships total during its life. Bring a droid for a 40 point ship that will likely lose out to 24 points worth of TIE fighters. And by likely, I mean, almost assuredly.

Problem 6: There is no winning strategy for the Rebels, aside from getting much, much luckier
The main problem with this game is that it is incredibly fun to actually play. The mechanics of the turns are great, the minis are great, the theme is fantastic, and everything else just absolutely screams FUN. But I just think that things are stacked too far in the Imperial's favor.

I think FFG got a little carried away with how many points the Rebel unique characters are assigned.

R2-D2, for example, is in no way shape or form worth 4 points on a ship. Sure, regen'ing a point of shield is huge. However, that little caveat of having to do a green maneuver basically negates any of its value whatsoever. You have a choice of being a sitting duck, negating *one* damage or pretending you didn't have Artoo at all. This only gets worse the bigger the battle is.

For 4 points, his regen needs to have no move restriction, or needs to regen 2 points/green move. Remember, we're talking about a 9 point disadvantage from the beginning, so adding Artoo to a base X-Wing is going to allow an opposing imperial a free 2 point upgrade on one of their two ships. Four points is a ton to spend on an upgrade, considering, for that amount, Backstabber is basically a cheaper X-Wing, while R2-D2 doesn't provide even *half* that amount of value.

Summary

Realistically, I think this game is stacked in the Imperial's favor by a LARGE margin. Without a big luck disparity, the rebels start off in a big whole, points wise, and rapidly dig themselves into a deeper one the more they try to make up for the difference with upgrades.

The simplest way to balance it, I think, is to just give the rebels more points to work with than the imperials. I think ~+20% more points would probably result in a much more even distribution of wins.

Consider a 100 point imperial force vs a 120 point rebel force.

Imperials could field 8 TIE's, with Backstabber, and one other elite TIE pilot, and possibly something like Squad Leader.

The rebels could field 5 basic X-Wings, and have 15 points to play around with upgrades. Wedge with the Agility Droid (I think that's 4 points) and Swarm Tactics (I think that's 3 points), and switch one of the X-Wings out for Dutch Vander, I would think. Dutch would exist *solely* to give out target locks to Wedge, and Wedge would use Swarm tactics to give a rookie X-Wing 9 skill. That, coupled with the 2 additional Rookies helping with clean up and evade token removal, *might* be enough to give the rebel forces an edge. Maybe.

Honestly, I'm not even sure that that is enough of a handicap. I'd have to play more rounds, but the next time we play X-Wing, that's the suggestion I'm going to make.

Or, possibly, make the suggestion that all Rebel ships get -4 points to their cost, and all Rebel upgrades get -1 (to NO minimum cost, so Rookie Ships could have the basic R2 astromech for free, giving you some extra options after stress maneuvers).

As it stands, Rebel ships are overpriced, which stacks the game thoroughly in the Imperial's favor.
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Arrrrr'lex
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I am not qualified to offer my own opionion with just two games played so far. But what I noticed is the LACK of people complaining about balance issues. And we already have 59 pages of threads in this forum.

So what are all the other players doing wrong (as they dont seem to have balance issues), that you are doing right?
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I've thumbed your post because I appreciate the effort you took in doing the math and laying it out before us.

However, I've not played enough games to say one way or another, though I agree that TIEs seem pretty cost-effective compared to the Rebel ships we have.

I don't know the underlying formulae that FFGs to point-cost craft, but I'm willing to allow that there may be elements in mix that aren't reflected in scenarios.

For example, we know from the movies that X-wings (and I presume Y's, too) have drives that allow them to leap through hyperspace. TIEs are supposed to be "short-range" craft. That's got to be worth something in points that would make Rebel ships more expensive, though we don't see it (yet) in the game. That's something that might only manifest itself in a campaign game where the Rebels craft can shift base locations with relative ease (thanks tho their built-in hyperdrives) while the TIEs are tied to bases or assigned to close support of ships.

For that matter...what's to stop players from developing scenarios where the Rebels have a few TIEs as a part of their force? Or just develop interesting scenarios where the imbalance is part of the fun?

Imagine a game where Rebel craft are masquerading (somehow) as larger hyper-drive ships. The Empire has to commit ships carrying TIEs to tracking down the bogeys to determine which are real transports carrying war material from the packets of craft simulating a larger vessel that are really X'sand Y's instead?

I've hardly scratched the surface of this game and I'm still in that phase of ownerhsip where I still look forward to playing it! But I'm glad to have this thread to return to when I want to revisit the issues of balance.
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Dave Smith
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I'm agreeing with the OP. We've now had 8 games playing the scenarios from the book and its now 7-1 to the Empire. In a 6 Tie V 2X and 2 Y wings, with concentrated fire, the Rebels lost 2 ships to zero by turn 2, there is no coming back from that.
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Henrik Johansson
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Though I generaly have a felling the Rebels might be a bit over priced, I think you are exegrating things a lot. And mabye you even got a few things wrong.

You speak of basic Ties moving after basic X-wing. Now as I recal, the lowest value tie has a pilot skill of 1 and the rookie X-wing has a skill of 2 so the Ties will move (and do theire actions) before the X-wings while the X-wings will get to fire first.

You allso mentioned "losing your focus action" when R2-D2 regens a shiled. How do you lose your action by doing a green maneuver?

You allso seem to say shields are euqal to hull. Shiled have the added advantage of basicly converting critical hits to normal hits. Might not be a huge advantage, but it's there non the less and should be worth something.


Unfortionaly I don't get to play very often so I've yet to get a good feel for the balance. Statistics are all good and fine, but they rearly tell the whole story.
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Major Mishap wrote:
I'm agreeing with the OP. We've now had 8 games playing the scenarios from the book and its now 7-1 to the Empire. In a 6 Tie V 2X and 2 Y wings, with concentrated fire, the Rebels lost 2 ships to zero by turn 2, there is no coming back from that.


I think that could be part of the problem: two of three scenarios give the Imperials a free TIE as a reinforcement for each one they lose. That might be okay when you're plinking around with the core set, but in larger battles, that's a recipe for defeat to the side that receives no reinforcements.

...But the rebels can try to play the "numbers game" that the TIEs use, too. Try games where you max the number of ships you can field as the Rebs before kitting them out.
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Derry Salewski
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Well, that all seems pretty realistic given the rebel plight! Crush 'em under the Imperial heel, I say!

But, given the points system, it would be pretty trivial to just bid/agree on a fair number of points difference, right?

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Smuggler wrote:
You allso seem to say shields are euqal to hull. Shiled have the added advantage of basicly converting critical hits to normal hits. Might not be a huge advantage, but it's there non the less and should be worth something.


And THIS is a very good argument. I scored at least 3 crits in the last game against the Rebels, none of them took effect, because they were "eaten" by the shields on the rebels.

Every crit against a TIE is a critical hit.
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Christopher Ross
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I've been saying this for a while. I don't think that there is a way to balance them short of changing the points. Rebels are at a disadvantage in every way and only can win if they manage to take out some ties in the first couple of turns. They have never won in any of my games.

However, you will have people here who will swear by the Rebels. I think that you have well supported your argument and I agree with you.

Let's not forget the disadvantage in the actual Star Wars universe.

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Tony L
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Alex40K wrote:
Smuggler wrote:
You allso seem to say shields are euqal to hull. Shiled have the added advantage of basicly converting critical hits to normal hits. Might not be a huge advantage, but it's there non the less and should be worth something.


And THIS is a very good argument. I scored at least 3 crits in the last game against the Rebels, none of them took effect, because they were "eaten" by the shields on the rebels.

Every crit against a TIE is a critical hit.


While its true that a crit against a shield is wasted, a crit on a TIE is basically a waste as well. Most of the time, if you're hitting a TIE, it's because you managed to get more than one shot at it. If you got more than one shot at it, chances are, you got more than 2 shots at it. Often times, we would get an X-Wing, a Y-Wing, and a second X-Wing onto one TIE. If we rolled a crit, it either didn't matter (Y-Wing's Ion cannon can't crit), or was part of a volley that provided killing damage.

For the most part, crits *don't* matter. Oh, and for every crit that gets eaten by a shield, think about how many times a Rebel has to "waste" a regular attack over coming your Evade action, and then if there's even a crit left, it can very easily get dodged by the defense dice.
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Tony L
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Smuggler wrote:
(POINT ONE)Though I generaly have a felling the Rebels might be a bit over priced, I think you are exegrating things a lot. And mabye you even got a few things wrong.

(POINT TWO)You speak of basic Ties moving after basic X-wing. Now as I recal, the lowest value tie has a pilot skill of 1 and the rookie X-wing has a skill of 2 so the Ties will move (and do theire actions) before the X-wings while the X-wings will get to fire first.

(POINT THREE)You allso mentioned "losing your focus action" when R2-D2 regens a shiled. How do you lose your action by doing a green maneuver?

(POINT FOUR)You allso seem to say shields are euqal to hull. Shiled have the added advantage of basicly converting critical hits to normal hits. Might not be a huge advantage, but it's there non the less and should be worth something.

(POINT FIVE)Unfortionaly I don't get to play very often so I've yet to get a good feel for the balance. Statistics are all good and fine, but they rearly tell the whole story.


(POINT ONE) For what purpose would I exaggerate? I'm stating things pretty clearly based on the very simple facts and math based on the game. Rebels require LUCK on their side to hopefully get the initial conflict to get LUCKY kills and LUCKY dodges so that the rest of the combat might be SLIGHTLY balanced.

(POINT TWO)I don't own the game. My board game group "leader", per se, has 3 core sets, and multiple expansions. My best guess comes from this post:
http://buckaroo13.blogspot.com/2012/09/x-wing-ffg-game-revie...

and the fact that none of the TIEs in my game last night moved or acted at anything less than a 4 skill. They may have been obsidian pilots instead of academy pilots. Even if they academy pilots are skill 1, that only reduces the *smallest* of the advantages the Imperial forces have. And keep in mind, upgrading your TIE fighters to Obsidian pilots costs what, 2 points? Much more cost effective than upgrading your X-Wings.

(POINT THREE) You have to spend an action *and* perform a green maneuver to regen *one* point of shield with Artoo.

(POINT FOUR) Eh. Critical hits are rolled so rarely that honestly, I didn't even think about them. They have never made any difference in any of our fights, except for 1 Y-Wing that blew up 1 shooting turn before it would have otherwise (it got a double damage crit card, instead of a single damage).

(POINT FIVE) I think you'll find that the more you play, and the more comfortable you get with the Imperial forces, the less chance the Rebels have to even stand a chance on the board.
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Andrzej Sieradzki
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This game is not a game of chess. I like the different chances and different values, even when they are unbalanced as you say. It even gets more real. Battle forces are seldom balanced. Even luck plays it's important role. If you feel you played an inferior side, just swap sides, get the same number of points and try to win.
There is really no need to make detailed hit statistics. Just take one X-wing and face two or three swarming TIEs of your buddy, or try to take on a very good rebel fighter with your academy pilots; that's the fun the game offers!
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scifiantihero wrote:
Well, that all seems pretty realistic given the rebel plight! Crush 'em under the Imperial heel, I say!


I kind of agree with this point. The X-Wing is an expensive and hard to aquire ship in the Star Wars cannon. The Rebels are lucky to have them in the first place. The Empire's TIE fighter program is endless...
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Jason Rush
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I can see that you've done your research through number crunching but I couldn't disagree more , in fact in all our games the rebels have come out on top.
In team based 100 point games and squad based 60 point games the rebels have kicked butt to the point where the imperial player is suggesting that the game needs rebalancing in their favor but of course it was more down to bad dice rolling.
More ships is not necessarily better , taking into account collisions and getting all ties involved lined up onto a rebel ship isn't always that easy to do.
I think the costing for xwings seems relative with the advantages they have over ties and as for 4 points for R2 , he basically makes that xwing a regenerating pain in the butt for imps .
With only 1 wave on the market at the moment I think it's too early to say about rebalance issues .
What really matters is how the game unfolds when the ships are on the table and as it is a dice based mechanic if you throw blanks all the time is doesn't matter if you have 10 vs 1 you gonna loose.
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Tony L
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nightbomber wrote:
This game is not a game of chess. I like the different chances and different values, even when they are unbalanced as you say. It even gets more real. Battle forces are seldom balanced. Even luck plays it's important role. If you feel you played an inferior side, just swap sides, get the same number of points and try to win.
There is really no need to make detailed hit statistics. Just take one X-wing and face two or three swarming TIEs of your buddy, or try to take on a very good rebel fighter with your academy pilots; that's the fun the game offers!


I'm all for games that are not 100% equally balanced. I enjoy 7 epidemic games of Pandemic!. I enjoy stacking the odds in Wings of War against a team of experienced pilots flying crappy scouts against a team of novice pilots in bi-plane fighters. I enjoy trying to beat Scenario 1 in Zombicide.

All I'm saying is, X-Wing is Way, Way, Way beyond those games.

If you ignore your first game or two, where players are just learning how everything works, you will most likely *never* have the Rebels win.

That isn't my idea of fun.
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JustTee wrote:

(POINT THREE) You have to spend an action *and* perform a green maneuver to regen *one* point of shield with Artoo.


No, you haven't. At least you don't need to spend an action. That was one thing driving me insane during the last game.

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Jace_Ace wrote:
I can see that you've done your research through number crunching but I couldn't disagree more , in fact in all our games the rebels have come out on top.
In team based 100 point games and squad based 60 point games the rebels have kicked butt to the point where the imperial player is suggesting that the game needs rebalancing in their favor but of course it was more down to bad dice rolling.
More ships is not necessarily better , taking into account collisions and getting all ties involved lined up onto a rebel ship isn't always that easy to do.
I think the costing for xwings seems relative with the advantages they have over ties and as for 4 points for R2 , he basically makes that xwing a regenerating pain in the butt for imps .
With only 1 wave on the market at the moment I think it's too early to say about rebalance issues .
What really matters is how the game unfolds when the ships are on the table and as it is a dice based mechanic if you throw blanks all the time is doesn't matter if you have 10 vs 1 you gonna loose.


Anecdotal evidence vs statistical break down of averages?

The funny thing, though, is that even you note that the rebels won "more down to bad dice rolling". Like I said, Rebels need a lucky opening salvo (both offensively and defensively) in order to have a prayer at winning.

In a 100 point game, I dare you to try to field anything that beats a simple 9 TIE squad. Break each of the 3 TIE's off to fight each of the 3 X-Wings 1 on 1. Or, hell, break 3 off to fight 1, and 6 off to fight another. Whatever is left will *easily* clean up the last X-Wing.

Oh, and one last thing. The one time our Rebels won was when the Imperial forces made the mistake of focus firing on the 2 Y-Wings we fielded. Those crucial shooting turns allowed the X-Wings to blow up several TIEs before they started firing at the Xs, and by the time they changed targets, the numbers were no longer in the Imperial favor.

If your friends playing Imperials are still having trouble, make sure they are absolutely ignoring the Y-Wings unless they have no other shooting options. Also, make sure that any TIE fighters in an X-Wing or Y-Wing arc of fire *always* evades (always a better defensive option), and any TIE's on the flanks *always* focuses (and uses it offensively).

That, coupled with focus fire, makes short work of the Rebel scum.

Since that initial mix up with firing at the lolY-Wings, the Imperials haven't lost.
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Tony L
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Alex40K wrote:
JustTee wrote:

(POINT THREE) You have to spend an action *and* perform a green maneuver to regen *one* point of shield with Artoo.


No, you haven't. At least you don't need to spend an action. That was one thing driving me insane during the last game.



Ok, that makes it slightly better. Unfortunately, it is still of limited use, as having to do a green maneuver to use it drastically limits its value. TIE fighters have better, faster greens. For four points, honestly, I think Artoo should regen your full shield amount on green maneuvers, and one shield on whites.

He simply hasn't provided the value in our games. If you're taking damage, you generally have to try to get the hell out of dodge. If you try to get out of dodge, you can't use a green. TIE's are generally better at following, so you generally have to pull some radical moves out. Maybe in that time frame, you can regen 1 shield. More often than not, the X-Wing carrying Artoo has been shot down before using his ability, or a turn or two afterwards.

Plus, if the imperials are smart, they save the X-Wing with Artoo for last, and blast everything else to smithereens, and then Artoo can't do enough fast enough.
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Cracky wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well, that all seems pretty realistic given the rebel plight! Crush 'em under the Imperial heel, I say!


I kind of agree with this point. The X-Wing is an expensive and hard to aquire ship in the Star Wars cannon. The Rebels are lucky to have them in the first place. The Empire's TIE fighter program is endless...


Sure, that's fine for canon, but then again, Luke in his X-Wing is able to blow up multiple TIE fighters, and still have his torpedoes to use to blow up the Death Star.

TIE fighters are supposed to be endless canon fodder. I like the idea of going 1 X-Wing against 2-3 TIE fighters. But, very simply, that is a fight that the X-Wing is going to lose *every* time. It will be hard enough for the single X-Wing to beat 2 TIE fighters. And those are equivalent points. More often than not, the second TIE fighter is getting away from that fight, and its doing so at pretty much full operating capacity.
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Alex40K wrote:
JustTee wrote:

(POINT THREE) You have to spend an action *and* perform a green maneuver to regen *one* point of shield with Artoo.


No, you haven't. At least you don't need to spend an action. That was one thing driving me insane during the last game.



Yes, the card doesn't say that you need to spend an action. Upgrade cards don't always require an action - the ones that do require an action say so.

Overall, though, I agree with the OP, at least from my relatively limited experience (but IMO the game should be balanced out of the box anyway; I shouldn't need to become an expert to have a chance playing one side; but I digress). I'm sure the rebels can win a dogfight, but I haven't seen it yet, and they have to be lucky.

One thing the OP isn't considering, though, is Target Lock. This might be one reason the rebel ships cost more points. Basic TIEs don't have it. Whether it's enough to balance the game, I'm doubtful.

I had issues recently with huge imbalance in Descent 2nd edition. There, the imbalance is not easy to fix, and for various reasons not worth the bother, in my view. However, X-Wing is very easy to fix; simply give the rebels more points to play with. When/if you find they start winning too easily, nudge the points down until you find parity.
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JustTee wrote:

Ok, that makes it slightly better. Unfortunately, it is still of limited use, as having to do a green maneuver to use it drastically limits its value.


I think it's pretty good on a Y-Wing, as you're probably going to be flying slowly anyway. Sure, it has very few greens, but 1 forward is all you will probably need most of the time, as you have a 360 degree firing arc with the ion cannon. Makes the Y-Wing pretty tough.
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Grainger wrote:
Alex40K wrote:
JustTee wrote:

(POINT THREE) You have to spend an action *and* perform a green maneuver to regen *one* point of shield with Artoo.


No, you haven't. At least you don't need to spend an action. That was one thing driving me insane during the last game.



Yes, the card doesn't say that you need to spend an action. Upgrade cards don't always require an action - the ones that do require an action say so.

Overall, though, I agree with the OP, at least from my relatively limited experience (but IMO the game should be balanced out of the box anyway; I shouldn't need to become an expert to have a chance playing one side; but I digress). I'm sure the rebels can win a dogfight, but I haven't seen it yet, and they have to be lucky.

One thing the OP isn't considering, though, is Target Lock. This might be one reason the rebel ships cost more points. Basic TIEs don't have it. Whether it's enough to balance the game, I'm doubtful.

I had issues recently with huge imbalance in Descent 2nd edition. There, the imbalance is not easy to fix, and for various reasons not worth the bother, in my view. However, X-Wing is very easy to fix; simply give the rebels more points to play with. When/if you find they start winning too easily, nudge the points down until you find parity.


Target Lock, except when acquired for free via Dutch Vander, is not worth it. Offensively, it is equivalent to Focus, used offensively. However, since it has no defensive value, Focus is the better option 9 times out of 10. The only time Target Lock is worth using is when you can't fire on a ship, and you're trying to set it up for a future turn. The number of times this comes up (especially because not only do you have to have no shot on anything, you have to be clear from all incoming firing arcs as well) is extremely limited.

However, since our initial game, TIE fighters that get target locked just book it away from the locking fighter, and engage one of the other targets.
 
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nightbomber wrote:
This game is not a game of chess. I like the different chances and different values, even when they are unbalanced as you say. It even gets more real. Battle forces are seldom balanced. Even luck plays it's important role. If you feel you played an inferior side, just swap sides, get the same number of points and try to win.
There is really no need to make detailed hit statistics. Just take one X-wing and face two or three swarming TIEs of your buddy, or try to take on a very good rebel fighter with your academy pilots; that's the fun the game offers!


It's not chess, it's a miniatures game with a points-buy system. The point of points buy systems (pun intended) is that it allows two roughly equal sides to compete. I've not heard of one that is deliberately imbalanced.

If the game had been perfectly balanced, presumably you wouldn't have been complaining that FFG should have deliberately made it imbalanced. Surely balance is preferable, to give a chance to learn the ins-and-outs of the two sides from the start; if players want imbalance, they can adjust as they see fit.

If the OP is correct, the game is hugely imbalanced, and could easily have been fixed out of the box by changing the points costs (or recommending that the rebels more points per scenario).

Of course, no points buy system is ever going to give perfectly balanced games (as there's an element of rock-paper-scissors in what players can select) but some semblance of balance should be the baseline.
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JustTee wrote:
In a 100 point game, I dare you to try to field anything that beats a simple 9 TIE squad. Break each of the 3 TIE's off to fight each of the 3 X-Wings 1 on 1. Or, hell, break 3 off to fight 1, and 6 off to fight another. Whatever is left will *easily* clean up the last X-Wing.


I couldn't find a tie fighter cheaper than 12 points. How are you fielding 9?
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Grainger wrote:
JustTee wrote:

Ok, that makes it slightly better. Unfortunately, it is still of limited use, as having to do a green maneuver to use it drastically limits its value.


I think it's pretty good on a Y-Wing, as you're probably going to be flying slowly anyway. Sure, it has very few greens, but 1 forward is all you will probably need most of the time, as you have a 360 degree firing arc with the ion cannon. Makes the Y-Wing pretty tough.


It also makes the Y-Wing cost 27 points. For an extremely limited mobile fire platform (it can only do, at best, 1 point of damage/turn), this is entirely too expensive. If your Y-Wing is just plinking along doing Green 1 straights, you're going to get RIPPED apart by incoming fire. 1 defensive die for something on a predictable path is basically death. Consider this Y-Wing against Backstabber (a 16 point ship). All backstabber has to do is get behind you. You will pretty much never hit him (3+E is basically zilch for 3 attack dice). You, on the other hand, have basically the equivalent of 1+E (your Artoo will negate one damage per turn, just as if you had negated the dodge roll).

So his 4 attack dice (out of your arc of fire, within 1 range) against your 1 + dodge...he's blowing you up way before you blow him up. And you can never get away. And he costs 11 points less than you do.

It's a losing proposition.
 
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