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Subject: Noise's Trash and Decking rss

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Agent J
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When does the corporation lose - when the card cannot be trashed, or when the corp cannot draw a card on the next turn?
 
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Noah D

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Quote:
If the Corporation’s R&D is empty when he attempts to
draw a card, the Runner immediately wins the game.


All it says.

*EDIT* There is only situation I can conceive of where this would make a difference is if on the Runner's turn, Matrix Analyzer advanced an installed agenda to its difficulty level, and the Corp has enough points already scored, that scoring that agenda at the start of his turn gives him the win before his forced draw would cause him to lose.

Otherwise, it's functionally equivalent.
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B C Z
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p 20:
Quote:
If R&D contains no cards and the Corporation attempts to draw
a card, the Runner immediately wins the game.


Specifically says 'draw', so rules as written would mean the Corp doesn't trigger on Noise attempting to trash from a non-existent R&D.

The Corp loses at the beginning of their next turn if the Runner just sits there and draws credits, so it kind of doesn't matter.
 
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The rules state that the Corp only loses when R&D is empty and the Corp attempts to draw a card. The only time I could see this as an issue is if the Runner runs R&D, encounters a Matrix Analyzer (which allows the Corp to place a Advancement token on an agenda), accesses R&D and trashes/scores the last remaining card in the Corp's deck. The Corp could score his or her agenda at the start of the next Corp turn before the forced draw.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Well, that's good to have it in writing somewhere, anyway.

Ripshawd, that was almost the scenario I was thinking about. Noise's is actually extremely powerful against a short-stacked H-B deck - between the ABTs and his ability, the corp is running out of cards before you know it! Add some mediums and demo runs to that and you can actually deck the corp.

Just curious about how Matrix Analyzer would work with that.

Thanks!
 
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Noah D

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Ripshawd wrote:
The rules state that the Corp only loses when R&D is empty and the Corp attempts to draw a card. The only time I could see this as an issue is if the Runner runs R&D, encounters a Matrix Analyzer (which allows the Corp to place a Advancement token on an agenda), accesses R&D and trashes/scores the last remaining card in the Corp's deck. The Corp could score his or her agenda at the start of the next Corp turn before the forced draw.


Lol, was adding this exact thing to my post above when you posted. Actually though in your example there isn't a situation of a card not being able to be trashed, but of there not being sufficient cards to access. (also does not end the game) The situation the OP is questioning would currently only occur from Noise playing a virus when R&D was already empty.
 
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argus88 wrote:
Ripshawd wrote:
The rules state that the Corp only loses when R&D is empty and the Corp attempts to draw a card. The only time I could see this as an issue is if the Runner runs R&D, encounters a Matrix Analyzer (which allows the Corp to place a Advancement token on an agenda), accesses R&D and trashes/scores the last remaining card in the Corp's deck. The Corp could score his or her agenda at the start of the next Corp turn before the forced draw.


Lol, was adding this exact thing to my post above when you posted. Actually though in your example there isn't a situation of a card not being able to be trashed, but of there not being sufficient cards to access. (also does not end the game) The situation the OP is questioning would currently only occur from Noise playing a virus when R&D was already empty.


Good point. If the Runner than plays a Virus after the run, the Corp would not trash a card and (I believe) still not lose the game.

On another note, I managed to deck against NBN the other day. I managed to trash about 11 cards with viruses and Demo Run over the course of the game. I got lucky as I managed to trash a number of agendas in this way. But, I couldn't get through the ice in front of the Archives. So, the game ended with both of us at 6 agenda points and no remaining agendas in R&D.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Ripshawd wrote:
argus88 wrote:
Ripshawd wrote:
The rules state that the Corp only loses when R&D is empty and the Corp attempts to draw a card. The only time I could see this as an issue is if the Runner runs R&D, encounters a Matrix Analyzer (which allows the Corp to place a Advancement token on an agenda), accesses R&D and trashes/scores the last remaining card in the Corp's deck. The Corp could score his or her agenda at the start of the next Corp turn before the forced draw.


Lol, was adding this exact thing to my post above when you posted. Actually though in your example there isn't a situation of a card not being able to be trashed, but of there not being sufficient cards to access. (also does not end the game) The situation the OP is questioning would currently only occur from Noise playing a virus when R&D was already empty.


Good point. If the Runner than plays a Virus after the run, the Corp would not trash a card and (I believe) still not lose the game.

On another note, I managed to deck against NBN the other day. I managed to trash about 11 cards with viruses and Demo Run over the course of the game. I got lucky as I managed to trash a number of agendas in this way. But, I couldn't get through the ice in front of the Archives. So, the game ended with both of us at 6 agenda points and no remaining agendas in R&D.


That's the way I want to lose!
 
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Joel Gardner
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Quote:
On another note, I managed to deck against NBN the other day. I managed to trash about 11 cards with viruses and Demo Run over the course of the game. I got lucky as I managed to trash a number of agendas in this way. But, I couldn't get through the ice in front of the Archives. So, the game ended with both of us at 6 agenda points and no remaining agendas in R&D.


Demolition run says you MAY trash any card you access. You don't have to trash agendas and can immediately score them. You would have won the game.

Edit: Unless you only trashed agendas with Noise's ability. Those are not accessed and go face-down into archives.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Syncitia wrote:
Quote:
On another note, I managed to deck against NBN the other day. I managed to trash about 11 cards with viruses and Demo Run over the course of the game. I got lucky as I managed to trash a number of agendas in this way. But, I couldn't get through the ice in front of the Archives. So, the game ended with both of us at 6 agenda points and no remaining agendas in R&D.
Demolition run says you MAY trash any card you access. You don't have to trash agendas and can immediately score them. You would have won the game.
Note the "I managed to trash about 11 cards with viruses and Demo Run..." My guess is that the agendas were trashed thanks to Noise's ability, not the Demo Run, and the ICE guarding Archives was what was preventing the scoring of the agendas.

EDIT: ninja'd by Syncitia's edit!
 
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You are correct. The agendas were trashed using Noise's ability.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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I think decking is a viable strategy in the current metagame that keeps most corp decks on 49 cards. I wouldn't try it on big NBN though.
 
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Justin Dugger

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It is not a viable metagame strategy. The average game lasts 13 turns, so you want to win faster than that. That's maybe 20 cards drawn out of 45-49. You'd need to power through an entire deck of viruses plus all the deja vus to have a chance at decking. Basically, any strategy involving milling the corp could just as easily be accomplished by milling half as much and running on archives once.

What Noiz's ability is good for, though, is knocking the corp off balance. Archives becomes a must defend very early, because if you wait, it becomes obvious when there's agendas to be won. And there's very little a corp can do once agendas are in there. Plus, uniced archives are a good source of counters for datasucker.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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pwnguin wrote:
It is not a viable metagame strategy. The average game lasts 13 turns, so you want to win faster than that. That's maybe 20 cards drawn out of 45-49. You'd need to power through an entire deck of viruses plus all the deja vus to have a chance at decking. Basically, any strategy involving milling the corp could just as easily be accomplished by milling half as much and running on archives once.

What Noiz's ability is good for, though, is knocking the corp off balance. Archives becomes a must defend very early, because if you wait, it becomes obvious when there's agendas to be won. And there's very little a corp can do once agendas are in there. Plus, uniced archives are a good source of counters for datasucker.


That's the problem, though - archives tend to be ICEd around Noise.

My favorite is to play a virus or two right after he Precogs. Oh, sorry about that card you really wanted to draw next turn.. Run archives, oooogenda.
 
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