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Subject: Can you tell someone they have 0 cards of a value or colour? rss

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Gordon Watson
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As per the heading really - when giving info can you tell someone they have zero of a colour or value?
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Bryan Lane
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as per my interpretation, no. The clues are for giving information (color or value) about cards in hand, not information about cards NOT in hand.
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Robb Effinger
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I believe that the official answer to this is "Yes", but given that there is a degenerate strategy if you allow this, I'd suggest that you go with "no".

Of course, that answer came from the "Hanabi and Ikebana" printing, so perhaps the rules are clearer now.
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Matthias Wagner
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domus_ludorum wrote:
As per the heading really - when giving info can you tell someone they have zero of a colour or value?


The official answer by Antoine is "yes" and we also included this in our rules.
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Bryan Lane
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Well there you go. We've been playing it wrong. Thanks for the correction guys, I'm glad I popped in.
 
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Chris Schreiber
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The ability to tell someone they have no cards of a certain color is very helpful with the mini-expansion that includes 5 additional cards that are multicolored. "You have no red cards" tells someone that they also have no multicolored cards.
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James Nathan
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Robb wrote:
given that there is a degenerate strategy if you allow this,.


Really? Can you elaborate?

I've always played knowing this rule, but only found it useful once in dozens of games.
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Cameron Chien
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Chris Schreiber wrote:
The ability to tell someone they have no cards of a certain color is very helpful with the mini-expansion that includes 5 additional cards that are multicolored. "You have no red cards" tells someone that they also have no multicolored cards.

My understanding is that the multicolor cards are their own color, so they wouldn't be covered in a "these cards are red" kind of clue.

Also, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had someone give a "you have no cards of this color/number" clue, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to figure into any real strategy.

Cameron
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Lee Fisher
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Zeede wrote:
Chris Schreiber wrote:
The ability to tell someone they have no cards of a certain color is very helpful with the mini-expansion that includes 5 additional cards that are multicolored. "You have no red cards" tells someone that they also have no multicolored cards.

My understanding is that the multicolor cards are their own color, so they wouldn't be covered in a "these cards are red" kind of clue.

Also, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had someone give a "you have no cards of this color/number" clue, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to figure into any real strategy.

Cameron


In the new version, the multicolored cards register as all colors. So "red" would include red plus multicolored.
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Gordon Watson
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ABACUSSPIELE wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
As per the heading really - when giving info can you tell someone they have zero of a colour or value?


The official answer by Antoine is "yes" and we also included this in our rules.


Thanks for the clarification - I don't think this is covered in the English version of the rules I have.
 
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Matthias Wagner
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lfisher wrote:
In the new version, the multicolored cards register as all colors. So "red" would include red plus multicolored.


Please note that this is only a 2nd variant we included: When giving clues multicolored cards are handled like you described and you are not allowed to say "multicolored". But you have to play them on the table like a sixth color. It makes playing with multicolored cards harder and I would suggest to play with 10 multicolored cards first when using this variant.
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Robb Effinger
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xitoliv wrote:
Robb wrote:
given that there is a degenerate strategy if you allow this,.


Really? Can you elaborate?

I've always played knowing this rule, but only found it useful once in dozens of games.


Sorry, tried to find the original post explaining this so I could link it, I failed. A friend came up with this system:

Basically, if you can tell someone that they hold 0 of something, then on your turn you always have the ability to give one of (11 * number_of_players -1) clues - in a 4 player game, one of 33 clues. You can tell the player on your left hand partner about his cards of a color he is holding (1 of 6 with the multicolored cards), or his 1's, 2's, etc.. (1 or 5), so you can tell him one of 11 things. Same for the next player, same for the next player. This gives you far more space for an artificial convention then you need. So for example, Artificial clue #1 might be tell my LHP about his 1s, and clue #6 may be tell him about reds, and #12 is tell the guy two seats to the left about his 1s.

This only works if 0 is a legal number to tell someone about - if it isn't, I can't tell my LHP about his reds if he isn't holding any reds.

Obviously, you can play with allowing 0 and not allowing this degenerate strategy - but as you've said, it's rarely useful in a natural setting, and rather then disallow some artificial uses of 0 but not all of them we just disallowed clueing 0.

Now, I haven't played the new variant of counting multicolored cards as all colors, but I could see how it may be more valuable to clue 0 when playing with that variant.
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James Nathan
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Well, thankfully I couldn't follow that, so I'm going to keep allowing the rule.
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Andreas Krüger
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Instead of using an elaborated coded communication scheme, I would rather just cheat.
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Andy Stout
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Note that this has changed in the new R&R Edition of Hanabi: "0 card clues" are explicitly not permitted.

Any idea why they made this change, given that Bauza apparently is in favor of 0-card clues?
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brian
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dragonstout wrote:
Note that this has changed in the new R&R Edition of Hanabi: "0 card clues" are explicitly not permitted.

Any idea why they made this change, given that Bauza apparently is in favor of 0-card clues?

I'd like to know this too.
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Robb Effinger
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
dragonstout wrote:
Note that this has changed in the new R&R Edition of Hanabi: "0 card clues" are explicitly not permitted.

Any idea why they made this change, given that Bauza apparently is in favor of 0-card clues?

I'd like to know this too.


There is an artificial convention set which totally breaks the game open that makes use of the 0-clue. And it doesn't make the game fun. I would guess that they wanted to discourage this. Or maybe they wanted to explicitly disallow it in case they ever ran a duplicate Hanabi tournament . And the 0-clue is rarely useful in a more natural convention set (although I see how it could be more valuable if you're playing more with the negative-information space)

Oh, hey, I already posted this like 3 posts up. Although my explanation of the convention set is absolutely terrible? Maybe it was deliberately obscure so as to not taint people who wanted to use the 0 clue, although really, if you're using an artificial convention set, it's pretty obvious that you're doing so. Or maybe I just posted when I was tired .

 
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Gordon Watson
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For me playing Hanabi with an artificial convention set both spoils the game and misses the point of it entirely. I will continue to play allowing the zero clues but simply won't play the game at all with anyone suggesting call conventions.
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brian
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Robb wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
dragonstout wrote:
Note that this has changed in the new R&R Edition of Hanabi: "0 card clues" are explicitly not permitted.

Any idea why they made this change, given that Bauza apparently is in favor of 0-card clues?

I'd like to know this too.


... I would guess ...

... I already posted this ...


Do you know or guess why they changed it? Are you speaking officially for R&R games? My question is why THEY changed it especially since the designer aid he wanted it the other way.
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Lee Fisher
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If you generally want to clue legitimate plays, when is a zero clue a good idea?

I guess there could be a case where you already know certain things about your hand and knowing that none of them are X, makes multiple things clear?
 
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Daniel Fish
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Robb wrote:

There is an artificial convention set which totally breaks the game open that makes use of the 0-clue. And it doesn't make the game fun. I would guess that they wanted to discourage this. Or maybe they wanted to explicitly disallow it


I was going to write you a post to try to get you to hint at what this convention-code scheme is out of pure curiosity, but attempting to put that question into words caused me to realize exactly what the scheme is. And that it is incredibly straightforward, and that it makes the game totally pointless.

To the OP and all other posters - I was with you - I still wanted to be able to give negative clues - until I realized this scheme. Now I see why it was disallowed and I plan to enforce the R&R "no negative clues" rule just to prevent anyone I play with from ever realizing this game-breaking convention too.
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