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Subject: 4 advanced tie vs rebels rss

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Mario Nuñez Jimenez
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Does anybody tried to deploy 4 advanced ties?
Is it a good squad?

I didnt tried but i think 4 adv tie vs 4 x wings will be easier to win for the rebel...

Any thoughts?
 
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Lanz RafDE
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I guess very few people have 4 Advanced TIEs.
 
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negroscuro wrote:
Does anybody tried to deploy 4 advanced ties?
Is it a good squad?

I didnt tried but i think 4 adv tie vs 4 x wings will be easier to win for the rebel...

Any thoughts?


I do not think so. It would be much harder for the rebels to win against T/ADV then T/F. We played 2 dogfights 1:1 and the rebel player won only once. Of course it's far from a statistic result...
 
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Mario Nuñez Jimenez
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I said that probably is harder for the empire because of the lack of strong attack. Since its easier to get impacts rather than avoid them... xwings have more firepower...
 
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nightbomber wrote:
... We played 2 dogfights 1:1 and the rebel player won only once. Of course it's far from a statistic result...


Which is 50% - so the game is balanced! Hurray!!!
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Eric B.
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I'm of the mindset that 4x TIE/ad would be devastating against Rebels in a 100pt dogfight. The reason is because they'll have 4x Concussion missiles to bring to the table, and missiles offer incredible value and efficiency (when compared to their torpedo counterparts, because the missiles are shooting at 1-2 Agility targets and are even more effective when coupled with a Focus).


I won't present the math, but on average you should expect 3 Missiles to blow one X-Wing completely out of the water with some "change" leftover and the fourth can strip the shields off of another X-Wing.

That's a pretty strong initial lead, IF the Imps can successfully get off all 4 Missiles early in the confrontation. It would remain to be seen whether four stock TIE/ads could then take on the two or three remaining ships (and one is likely shield-less), but I suspect they'd have a real shot given such an early lead.


I really doubt we'd see the 4x TIE/ad build at tournaments, despite the danger it poses to Rebels, because it would terribly ineffective against other Imperial swarm squads (which it would have to face in the tournament).
 
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Fred Hartig
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Lanzetti wrote:
I guess very few people have 4 Advanced TIEs.


Well, I have 4 models of every type, because I wanted to field full Flights and not only 2 ship Elements.

4 Tie/ad are tough for the rebels.
They are good shielded dogfighters and armed with cluster missiles they can wreak havoc on the initial approach.
8 attack rolls are a nice start for a battle ...

Fred

 
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Scott Egan
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RogueThirteen wrote:
I'm of the mindset that 4x TIE/ad would be devastating against Rebels in a 100pt dogfight. The reason is because they'll have 4x Concussion missiles to bring to the table, and missiles offer incredible value and efficiency (when compared to their torpedo counterparts, because the missiles are shooting at 1-2 Agility targets and are even more effective when coupled with a Focus).


I won't present the math, but on average you should expect 3 Missiles to blow one X-Wing completely out of the water with some "change" leftover and the fourth can strip the shields off of another X-Wing.

That's a pretty strong initial lead, IF the Imps can successfully get off all 4 Missiles early in the confrontation. It would remain to be seen whether four stock TIE/ads could then take on the two or three remaining ships (and one is likely shield-less), but I suspect they'd have a real shot given such an early lead.


I really doubt we'd see the 4x TIE/ad build at tournaments, despite the danger it poses to Rebels, because it would terribly ineffective against other Imperial swarm squads (which it would have to face in the tournament).


Outside of maybe certain Marksmenship combos the Rebels have far better offensive capabilities to pair with Torpedoes, particularly Wedge and Horton.

Also against the Imp mirror 4 Concussion Missles have a good shot at taking out 2 TiEs which is a huge advantage because as the stats show 2 ATK dice vs 3 DEF dice is not going to yield alot of damage. Getting an early kill or two and then playing defensively is a possibly winning strategy when primary weapon kills are unlikely.
 
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Christopher Ross
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I'm not convinced that the Tie Advanced is a good deal. For the extra points you don't get any extra firepower unless you upgrade to one time use missiles.

To me, the advantage of the Tie Advanced is to use Vadar to get the two actions but that is still a lot of points to spend where you could almost replace Vadar with 3 regular ties.

I never build a squad with more than one Tie Advance because I don't see the value.
 
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Mario Nuñez Jimenez
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You can field:

4 adv tie pilots (21 points each) + 4 concussion or cluster missiles.

3 adv tie pilots (23 points each) + darth vader

4 adv tie pilots (21 points each) + tie fighter (for up to 16 points)

...

I think there are interesting options.

Its true that darth vader is quite interesting but having 4 missiles to use against ships with just 1 or 2 agility its easy to take a big advantage taking into account that after that you will face them with ships almost as tough as them.

5 ships including 4 adv tie I think will give an important advantage against 3 rebel ships, may be even against 4 you have a small advantage.
 
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Eric B.
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ScottieATF wrote:


Outside of maybe certain Marksmenship combos the Rebels have far better offensive capabilities to pair with Torpedoes, particularly Wedge and Horton.


I don't know if this is true. Wedge and Horton are certainly the best when it comes to launching torps (quite a few players have gone so far as to say they're the only Rebel pilots who should be given torps), but even then a basic TIE/ad's concussion missile is likely to do more damage to a Rebel fighter.

The missile/torpedo economy makes no sense. They cost the same points, but a concussion missile is vastly superior given it's low Agility targets (we'll assume Rebel vs. Imperial match-up). The fact that the Concussion Missile converts a blank to hit is also far better, because it means they couple with Focus so much more effectively.

If a TIE/ad fires a Concussion with Focus (Vader does this with no sweat), then you're converting one blank and all EYEs into hits. If a torpedo rolls a blank, it's out of luck unless you're Horton. And coupling Focus with a Rebel torp is nice, but it doesn't have the same efficiency since one EYE is already getting converted (albeit to a Crit).

Now, the torps are more likely to land a Critical Hit which is nice, but that advantage is what it is since so many of the crits have little or no effect on TIEs (but Direct Hits are huge, so it all comes down to the cards).



The only thing that helps balance it out is that the Imps have to take TIE/ads to get missiles. TIE/ads are actually pretty good for the points, and are only sub-optimal choices because of the brute efficiency of basic TIEs.

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Scott Egan
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Quote:

The missile/torpedo economy makes no sense. They cost the same points, but a concussion missile is vastly superior given it's low Agility targets (we'll assume Rebel vs. Imperial match-up). The fact that the Concussion Missile converts a blank to hit is also far better, because it means they couple with Focus so much more effectively.


It makes somewhat less sense because you are assuming the Imp vs Rebel match-up. FFG clearly, based on their tournament rules, built the game to accommodate the mirror match. Now that is a bit of a leap of faith, but based on FFG track record I doubt they just throw in mirror matches without any testing.

And again my point was the the Rebels have better offensive combos to pair with Torpedoes. They have Wedge and Horton as static abilities, but they also have Dutch and Garven for set up abilities. The Imps have Vader as really their only offensive ability, in regards to Missles, and from there have to go to Squad Leader for some set up help which the Rebels can also do.

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The only thing that helps balance it out is that the Imps have to take TIE/ads to get missiles. TIE/ads are actually pretty good for the points, and are only sub-optimal choices because of the brute efficiency of basic TIEs.


I think some of the brute efficiency is of the basic TiEs is the inexperience of the parties involved. But I've made that opinion known. Also I think Crits are being undervalued and in some cases ignored as there were in the infamous "Math" argument in that other thread

I do think Cluster are overrated and Concussions should see more play. I'm excited for A-Wings so I can make use of Concussions, as they do have the higher expected hit over Torpedoes (except on Horton when he can focus)
 
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Eric B.
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ScottieATF wrote:

I think some of the brute efficiency is of the basic TiEs is the inexperience of the parties involved. But I've made that opinion known.


I think the brute efficiency of the basic TIE over the Adv is objectively in the points. Assuming missiles are set aside, which option below is better?

3x Storm Pilot (21) = 63
5x Academy Pilot (12) = 60


In each case you have 15 hit points. The ships of each set-up have the exact same Agility and Attack, but the basic TIE line-up gets two extra ships. This allows you to cover more of the board (increasing the chance you can force Rebels to overlap in their moves) and make two additional attacks a turn.

I don't see how anyone could argue that the 5x Academy Pilot option isn't far superior. One might contend that the Storm pilots at least shoot simultaneously with Rookie/Gold pilots, but one could up the list to 3x Obsidian and 2x Academy for the same price and get three attacks before Rookie/Gold/Storm/Academy pilots. Also, the TIE/ads do have Target Lock options, but Focus/Evade/Barrel Roll are already such useful actions I have a hard time thinking the option for TLs will make enough of a difference to compensate for the loss of two extra TIEs attacking each turn.

The only other possible advantage of the TIE/ad option is that shields potentially reduce the critical hits you sustain. But Critical Hits are nowhere near scary enough for anyone to argue that 3x Storm pilots is preferable to 3x Obsidian and 2x Academy pilots.


The one thing that makes non-Vader TIE/ads a viable choice over basic TIEs is exactly the fact that they can take missiles (which are crazy good against Rebels). Hence my point that while the Imps do get far more value out of their missiles point-for-point than Rebs do for torps, the Imps do have to take the sub-optimal TIE/ads to carry those missiles so maybe that balances it out a bit.

Just like everyone seems to agree you should never bring a Y-Wing to a dogfight without a turret, I can't imagine a reason why I'd want to bring a TIE/ad without a Concussion Missile. Just give me more TIEs instead.
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problem is once you start losing TIEs, your attack power goes down very quickly, and all of a sudden that Luke + R2F2 or R2D2 suddenly becomes impossible to kill.

with 3 TIEadv, at the very least you have more room for mistakes before one kicks the bucket, so you have more chances to recover. Compared to the all TIE build, where I do have cases of having 2 TIEs dead after the first major exchange, either to 2x torpedoes or getting caught at range 1 to Wedge etc. at least with a TIEadv, it is less likely to die that quickly

in the same way you would use a Y-wing to absorb some damage, you could use the TIEadv for the same purpose. Have it hold onto some missile and wave it around as a big shoot me sign, then jam him in with a forward 5 or two, and suddenly your other TIEs are ignored by the rebels.
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Chris Funk
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[q="ScottieATF"]
Quote:
I do think Cluster are overrated and Concussions should see more play. I'm excited for A-Wings so I can make use of Concussions, as they do have the higher expected hit over Torpedoes (except on Horton when he can focus)



I've had one round of cluster missles decimate Y-Wings and put a serious hurt on X-Wings. You roll three hits twice and any ship is going to be hurting, especially with the close range needed and the lower agility of the Rebel ships.
 
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Alex Eding
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jedijawa74 wrote:
I'm not convinced that the Tie Advanced is a good deal. For the extra points you don't get any extra firepower unless you upgrade to one time use missiles.

To me, the advantage of the Tie Advanced is to use Vadar to get the two actions but that is still a lot of points to spend where you could almost replace Vadar with 3 regular ties.

I never build a squad with more than one Tie Advance because I don't see the value.


I played a squad last night with 2 ADV and 2 TIE against 3 x-wings. I was worried that spending so much on ADV wouldn't pay off and just give the rebels fewer targets to take out of the sky. Turns out I killed all 3 rebel ships and didn't lose a single fighter. I was really surprised about this, and it was very exciting to watch the imp ships totally out-fly the x-wings. He could never shoot at me with more than 2 x-wings per combat round.

I now see a lot of value having extra missiles AND shields on the Imp side.
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Eric B.
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LeximusMaximus wrote:
I now see a lot of value having extra missiles AND shields on the Imp side.


I fully agree about the missiles part -- against Rebels they're absolutely worth their weight in gold (just think of how awesome TIE Bombers will be if they can carry two missiles/torps a la the Y-Wing).


I'm still not convinced that the Shields are worth their cost on a generic TIE/ad, though, and as such I don't think a non-Vader TIE/ad without missiles is ever worth bringing to the fight. Sure, it's a nice moral victory to not lose any ships, but, if instead of losing shield points you simply lose an extra TIE fighter that you bring instead of the TIE/ads, there's no practical difference to the Imperials. You still have the same firepower output even once that "bonus" TIE is destroyed. The only difference is that until that "bonus" TIE Fighter blows up, you have an extra attacker/blocker.


Imperial Squads with missile-carrying TIE/ads = good against Rebels
Imperial Squads with missile-less TIE/ads = far less effective and efficient than just bringing additional TIE(s)
 
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Mario Nuñez Jimenez
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Interesting ...

May be you are right, having less ships is to have less firepower, in fact having 4 tie/adv = 20 hits but having more hits than that just fielding tie fighters... you have to field at least 7 or 8 to increase your endurance over the 4 tie/adv option. So in the end having more firepower will be nice.

Probably having 4 tie/adv without missiles is not worth.
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Sergio Achinelli
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I think TIE/Adv are underestimated. 3 Adv have the same hit points as 5 TIE/In, but 6 of those are shields. Regular TIE's will have more attack dice in the first 1-3 rounds, but by the end of the game, I think the Adv's will have rolled more attack dice than them, given the increased survivability. Many people concentrate too much in the first turn(s) and forget how their builds will fare in the end game. The MF, for example, is said to be too expensive for a single attack per round. But for 50-60 points it attacks twice (Gunner or Luke), once to remove defensive buffs and again to cause damage, and this happens every single round of the match thanks to its turreted primary attack, while the opposing ships will forfeit their attacks 30-50% of the turns while chasing it. By the end of the game, who would have rolled more attack dice, the MF or 4 TIE's?

Give the Adv's some missiles and the numerical disadvantage may banish in turn 1. And in my experience, whoever kills more ships in turn 1 has to be really unlucky not to win the match.

They key is probably in the mindset. Imperial players play offensively (because they have a built-in defense advantage) and Rebel players play defensively (for the opposite case). That's why I feel the standard Imperial mindset doesn't work well with Adv's.
 
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Travis Morton
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Get theorycraft discussion, I approve.

The on paper factor of X- vs Tie/Ad is rather well lined up.

Factors (X- vs Adv)

3 Pwr vs 3 Agi
2 Agi vs 2 Pwr
Torpedo vs Missle (Cluster/Conc)
2 Shields vs 2 Shields
3 Hull vs 3 Hull
Lock/Focus (+Astromech) vs Lock/Focus/Roll/Evade

The real change ups can come from Imp vs Imp discussions.

Tie/Ad squad vs Tie Swarm. The new missles (Assault/Homing) beat the daylights out of swarm. At the cost of less ships. But in the 'mirror' those shields suck up the first volley which can be huge for winning the 'coin flip' opening.

Non-Unique pilot discussion only:
2 Shields matters in mitigating Asteroids and initial Critical hits. If a normal Tie flips a 2dmg Crit, it takes it. The Tie/Ad can absorb the first 2 shots w/o being impacted.

Overall if we are discussing generic everythings, I feel I would cut to 3 Tie/Ad and soup them up with Modifications. Or skip on a missle or 2 to have atleast 1 super Tie/Ad.

Mods can give Boost, +1 Shield, and +1 Vanishing Agility.. HUGE advantage. Because if you think there will not be Astromechs giving an edge you are mistaken. I would rather not have a 1 Torpedo and have most Astromech abilities on another 'super' ship.
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Jim Chadwick

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I always forget about the Target Lock. If you are able to use that on a turn where you are turning around and not shooting, you can then use a Focus and a Target Lock in one turn. Perhaps the TL might make up for having less dice than more Tie Fighters? You won't always get all those extra Ties shooting each turn.

What about giving a Tie Advanced Engine Upgrade? It would make him more maneuverable. Giving it to Darth Vader would make him crazy maneuverable.

I have been trying out Expose on Darth Vader, but haven't had enough experience with it. It's best used when not getting shot at and you usually need the Academy swarm to make that happen.
 
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Robert M.
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heychadwick wrote:
I always forget about the Target Lock. If you are able to use that on a turn where you are turning around and not shooting, you can then use a Focus and a Target Lock in one turn. Perhaps the TL might make up for having less dice than more Tie Fighters? You won't always get all those extra Ties shooting each turn.

What about giving a Tie Advanced Engine Upgrade? It would make him more maneuverable. Giving it to Darth Vader would make him crazy maneuverable.

I have been trying out Expose on Darth Vader, but haven't had enough experience with it. It's best used when not getting shot at and you usually need the Academy swarm to make that happen.

Target Lock does make a difference, and I like that because it rewards skill and planning ahead. However, it's not good enough to make up the difference between 2 Attack and 3, or between one 2 Attack with Target Lock and 2 shots at 2 Attack.

The big problem, as I see it, is that Wave 2 upgrades and/or missiles do make TIE Advanced a much more viable choice in the abstract--but the cost is too high. Four Tempest Squadron Pilots cost 84, which is a pretty slim margin with which to buy missiles and ship upgrades. And if you do manage to squeeze everything in, you're still left with a relatively small list that always deploys first and moves last.

You can back off to 3 ships, which opens up that margin for upgrades but (as with A-wings) leaves me wondering where the offense is going to come from once the missiles are away. It's hard not to conclude that a list with 6 TIE fighters with Wave 2 upgrades is going to beat the pants off a list of 3 TIE Advanced with Wave 2 upgrades.

With all that said, the list I'm curious about (because I think it does at least partially answer the offense question) is this one:

* Vader (29) + Concussion Missiles (4)
* Maarek (27) + Push the Limit (3) + Concussion Missiles (4)
* Bounty Hunter (33)

I suspect that it might fail miserably, but I've been surprised a number of times by Wave 2 content lately. If anyone gets a chance to do something like that, I'd love to know how it went.
 
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Sergio Achinelli
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
heychadwick wrote:
I always forget about the Target Lock. If you are able to use that on a turn where you are turning around and not shooting, you can then use a Focus and a Target Lock in one turn. Perhaps the TL might make up for having less dice than more Tie Fighters? You won't always get all those extra Ties shooting each turn.

What about giving a Tie Advanced Engine Upgrade? It would make him more maneuverable. Giving it to Darth Vader would make him crazy maneuverable.

I have been trying out Expose on Darth Vader, but haven't had enough experience with it. It's best used when not getting shot at and you usually need the Academy swarm to make that happen.

Target Lock does make a difference, and I like that because it rewards skill and planning ahead. However, it's not good enough to make up the difference between 2 Attack and 3, or between one 2 Attack with Target Lock and 2 shots at 2 Attack.

The big problem, as I see it, is that Wave 2 upgrades and/or missiles do make TIE Advanced a much more viable choice in the abstract--but the cost is too high. Four Tempest Squadron Pilots cost 84, which is a pretty slim margin with which to buy missiles and ship upgrades. And if you do manage to squeeze everything in, you're still left with a relatively small list that always deploys first and moves last.

You can back off to 3 ships, which opens up that margin for upgrades but (as with A-wings) leaves me wondering where the offense is going to come from once the missiles are away. It's hard not to conclude that a list with 6 TIE fighters with Wave 2 upgrades is going to beat the pants off a list of 3 TIE Advanced with Wave 2 upgrades.

With all that said, the list I'm curious about (because I think it does at least partially answer the offense question) is this one:

* Vader (29) + Concussion Missiles (4)
* Maarek (27) + Push the Limit (3) + Concussion Missiles (4)
* Bounty Hunter (33)

I suspect that it might fail miserably, but I've been surprised a number of times by Wave 2 content lately. If anyone gets a chance to do something like that, I'd love to know how it went.


I don't think four ships is going to be a small list anymore. I fully expect the new meta to be 3-5 ships, with 3-4 as average, and 2 or 6+ ships as rare but plausible. People will want to use those big ships, missiles and/or modifications, and it's impossible to field more than 3-4 ships if you take them.

Your list actually makes a lot of sense in my book. Would you still be concerned about the offensive impact of those Adv's in the late game if they had destroyed 2 ships in turns 1-2?
 
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Michael Ptak
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When I look at four TIE Advanceds all I see going for them are their extra resiliency with shields. They're X-Wings but without upgrade abilities and the attack. A novelty but I'll put more faith in a swarm of TIE Fighters.

I am however curious to see how a four-ship Tempest squadron formation performs with either Shield Upgrades or Stealth Devices equipped on all of them.

The idea is that they'd have enough resiliency to survive X-Wing attacks to focus-fire and destroy one rebel ship at a time.
 
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Travis Morton
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Entertaining you should pose that remark.

Last night I taught a veteran gamer how to play X-Wing.

He slaps down 4 Y-'s (Salm w/ R2-D2 Shields and Ion, Gray w/ Shields, 2x Gold)

I play Saber w/ Push x2, Tempest + Storm w/ Conc Missiles

We dance for, literally, 30+ minute of shots but no kills. My one tempest loses 2 Shields and take a lone crit, Munitions Explosion; that sucked. The other gets his missile off on Salm, taking him down 2 Hull, but he gains back an average of 1 Shield per turn with the unique Astromech.

My Interceptors pull many 11th hour techniques, gaining and losing stress to out flank the granny maneuvering Y-'s. But even with 4 dice, I don't get very far on the Gold twins.

I lose my Tempest first because of skill priority, as to be expected. Even with Target Locks the meager 2 lasers only dent the sturdy Y-'s. I eventually lose as the concentrated fire is too much for what should have been an evasive lone Interceptor.

Lesson Learned: Don't burn Focus on attack unless it is a killing chain of events. I should have been chipping away instead of trying to slap down his far more sturdy ships.

The Missiles were almost a non-factor. One exploded in its carrier, the other took shields off a Y-.
 
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