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The War: Europe 1939-1945» Forums » General

Subject: Rules Now Posted Online rss

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Charles Stampley
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The near final edition of the rules have been posted on Compass Games' website. TW is definitely a monster, but the rules are well-written and organized IMO. None of the concepts seemed difficult to understand.
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David desJardins
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Any wargame that has 70 turns is going to be something of a monster.

The most annoying thing about this game is that the title is nearly impossible to search for.
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Charles Stampley
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Any wargame that has 70 turns is going to be something of a monster.

The most annoying thing about this game is that the title is nearly impossible to search for.


LOL, I almost didn't find it either.
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Ernie Copley
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Hello, Mr. Desjardins - re: your comment on the title: I originally wanted to call the game "Thousand Year Reich." I thought it was a much more memorable title than the one we ended up with. However, Mark Mahaffey (TW's artist) cautioned me early on that with such a title, I'd have difficulty finding a publisher willing to adopt the project.

He was right - Ken Dingley at Compass Games (who will be publishing the game very soon) subsequently told me that if I'd chosen that title, he'd have asked me to change it. I was also told to eliminate any swastika symbols in the game, even as markers. So we ended up being rather more bland than I'd have liked to be. But one does what one needs to do to get a game published. That's gamebiz,

ernie
 
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David desJardins
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e_copley wrote:
Hello, Mr. Desjardins - re: your comment on the title: I originally wanted to call the game "Thousand Year Reich." I thought it was a much more memorable title than the one we ended up with. However, Mark Mahaffey (TW's artist) cautioned me early on that with such a title, I'd have difficulty finding a publisher willing to adopt the project.


For what it's worth, I would find that distasteful, too. There are a lot of things that are historical realities and yet people don't need to be reminded of in a game context, especially when you are asking one player to take the side of a nation that did do some fundamentally evil things.

The game Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42 had some muttering about the title, but most people could agree that all armies had heroes in them. Exalting the individual heroes is a lot different from exalting the regime itself, that sought to subjugate a large part of Europe.

My problem with this title is not that it's not descriptive, just that it's not functional. If you type "the war" into a search engine, you aren't going to find this game. If you say, "Let's try out The War," to a friend, it's not going to bring the game immediately to mind. If you ask the owner of a game store, "Are you going to stock The War?" it won't be very clear. And so on.

 
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Ernie Copley
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Re: Rules Now Posted Online Part2
Mr. Desjardins - one other point re: 70 turns in a game - that's incorrect, so if Compass has stated that anywhere, it needs to be fixed.

The game has quarterly turns. Even if one plays the full 1939-1945 Campaign Game (and I expect almost everyone to play the shorter scenarios), that's 24 turns. Here's my math: four seasonal turns a year, so four times 5 is 20 (for the full years of 1940-1944 inclusive); plus Fall and Winter 1939, and Spring and Summer 1945.

The 70 figure has me completely mystified,

ernie
 
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David desJardins
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e_copley wrote:
The 70 figure has me completely mystified,


Me too. I just realized that I was confusing this with the Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe forum. Sorry. blush
 
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stuart glanvville
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he obviously thinks it's monthly turns - 5 years of 12 = 60
+ 39/45 (i make it 69 but close enough)
for what it's worth
 
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stuart glanvville
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pipped by david himself while my creaky brains did the maths lol
 
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Ernie Copley
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Re: Rules Now Posted Online Part 3 - Search Engines
Re: the problem cited by Mr. Desjardins about finding the game via search engine. If you are just keying in The War, without the subtitle, it's unsurprising that one wouldn't find it. But when I key in the entire title, including "Europe 1939-1945," the Boardgamegeek page is right at the top of my list of hits. If they key in the full title, I think people will find it,

ernie
 
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David desJardins
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e_copley wrote:
But when I key in the entire title, including "Europe 1939-1945," the Boardgamegeek page is right at the top of my list of hits.


Yeah, sure. But (1) the colon makes it appear like a subtitle, as opposed to a central part of the title, and (2) the full title is too long, so people naturally abbreviate it. I mean, I say "Combat Commander", not Combat Commander: Europe, and I say "Conflict of Heroes", not Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42, and so on. And people (at least, people like me) have gotten used to search engines that can find what they are looking for just from the leading keywords, not just from full and complex text.
 
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Ernie Copley
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Re: Rules Now Posted Online more Cooments on Title
DaviddesJ wrote:
e_copley wrote:
But when I key in the entire title, including "Europe 1939-1945," the Boardgamegeek page is right at the top of my list of hits.


Yeah, sure. But (1) the colon makes it appear like a subtitle, as opposed to a central part of the title, and (2) the full title is too long, so people naturally abbreviate it. I mean, I say "Combat Commander", not Combat Commander: Europe, and I say "Conflict of Heroes", not Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42, and so on. And people (at least, people like me) have gotten used to search engines that can find what they are looking for just from the leading keywords, not just from full and complex text.


More thoughts on the game title and searching for it online:well, okay, but my constraint was that Compass has told me that they sell a significant number of games in Europe. That being the case, I was told I needed an inoffensive title to market it there, especially in Germany. So I duly adopted one such inoffensive title. Btw, gamers who've actually played the playtest games just call it "TW."

In any event, it's a little late to revisit the game's title. Compass hopes to start shipping it by October 31st. After we start shipping, I guess we'll find out how the customers feel about the whole product: rules, counters, map, play-balance...and title.

ernie
 
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David desJardins
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Yes, I didn't mean to suggest changing the title at this point, obviously that's not practical. And neither is it the most important thing for the game's success.

Having a commonly used nickname that is more recognizable would be good, though. I'm not sure yet how I feel about "TW". We'll see.
 
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Ernie Copley
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Yes, I didn't mean to suggest changing the title at this point, obviously that's not practical. And neither is it the most important thing for the game's success.

Having a commonly used nickname that is more recognizable would be good, though. I'm not sure yet how I feel about "TW". We'll see.


Hello again, Mr. Desjardins - I think one good way to find out about how you feel about TW (aside from the title itself) is to download the rules from the Compass site. In particular, you might want to browse through the section or sections governing your favorite campaign(s) and go from there.

For example, if you are an Eastern Front buff, you might want to browse through the rules specific to the USSR and see if you like what you see. If you do, you may want to consider digging a little deeper. If not...well, there are certainly lots of other games covering the Eastern Front. If you have any questions about the rules, I'd be happy to answer them.

ernie
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Charles Stampley
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For what its worth I actually like the title. It was a little difficult to find with the bgg search engine, but if you type the entire title it comes up.

I obviously don't have the game (yet) but I have read the rules a couple of times and like the concept of paying for chits out of your NARFs to activate and move units. I also like how armies are rated by quality but can improve with NARF expenditures. It sounds like it will do a good job of simulating the improving quality of Allied armies as the war progressed without a bunch of complex rules.
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Ernie Copley
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stampdog316 wrote:
For what its worth I actually like the title. It was a little difficult to find with the bgg search engine, but if you type the entite title it comes up.

I obviously don't have the game (yet) but I have read the rules a couple of times and like the concept of paying for chits out of your NARFs to activate and move units. I also like how armies are rated by quality but can improve with NARF expenditures. It sounds like it will do a good job of simulating the improving quality of Allied armies as the war progressed without a bunch of complex rules.


Hello, Mr. Stampley,

I'm glad you like the concepts. More detail: on the logistics effort (LE) chits, one has to decide at the begginning of the turn which LE type to use. Each one (Limited, Regional, Sustained, or Movement) has its strengths and weaknesses.

The quality improvement system creates other tradeoffs. A Major Power can upgrade one (or more) of its armed services by investing 10 NARFs each turn for five consecutive turns. Then that one service (for example, the Italian Army) would move up one level, say from Third Rate to Second Rate. Higher quality armies (or navies or air forces), get favorable modifiers on the combat table. Deciding how much effort to put into upgrades, and when, are especially key for the Soviet and Italian players. Upgrades are slow, and costly. Thus, there are lot of subtleties is making those decisions with scarce resources. Italy, to take a case in point, only has a NARF base of 56. Without German help, it's tough for them to upgrade. But with it...there are some interesting possibilities.

I am hoping players will like the logistics and upgrade systems and get the feel of them pretty quickly.

ernie
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David desJardins
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e_copley wrote:
Hello again, Mr. Desjardins - I think one good way to find out about how you feel about TW (aside from the title itself) is to download the rules from the Compass site.


Yeah, there are a lot of games that I'm potentially interested in but not enough so to try to learn the whole game through the rules. It's nice to put them online but I don't think it's very effective way of engaging potential customers compared to reviews and designer's notes.
 
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Kev.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
e_copley wrote:
Hello again, Mr. Desjardins - I think one good way to find out about how you feel about TW (aside from the title itself) is to download the rules from the Compass site.


Yeah, there are a lot of games that I'm potentially interested in but not enough so to try to learn the whole game through the rules. It's nice to put them online but I don't think it's very effective way of engaging potential customers compared to reviews and designer's notes.


Or an AAR with images so we can see it all in action. Or a video or 7 of the key components, and mechanics that make it worth the 100 page slog.
That would generate a bit of interest perhaps?
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Ernie Copley
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hipshot wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
e_copley wrote:
Hello again, Mr. Desjardins - I think one good way to find out about how you feel about TW (aside from the title itself) is to download the rules from the Compass site.


Yeah, there are a lot of games that I'm potentially interested in but not enough so to try to learn the whole game through the rules. It's nice to put them online but I don't think it's very effective way of engaging potential customers compared to reviews and designer's notes.


Or an AAR with images so we can see it all in action. Or a video or 7 of the key components, and mechanics that make it worth the 100 page slog.
That would generate a bit of interest perhaps?


Hello, Kev - my comments:

1) I only suggested that you download the rules; I haven't suggested that anyone read them cover to cover. I would assume that having downloaded them, you could briefly skim the over to see if this game is your cup of tea. If so, great, if not, that's the way it goes.

2) re: video - various reviewers do video reviews on the Consimworld site; you may want to monitor that site to see if someone does do such a review;

3) re: images - the Compassgames site has a half a dozen images of the game components loaded there - have you logged onto that site?

4) re: both visuals and AAR's - don't assume that all information on this game is on Boardgamegeek. There are over 700 posts on this game on TW's Consimworld forum - and several of them have uploaded photos and AAR's. You may want to visit that site. Log onto Consimworld.com, click Forum, then look for "Global and Multifront" as the game category onthe drop-down menu. You will find a lot of information there.

ernie
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David desJardins
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e_copley wrote:
I would assume that having downloaded them, you could briefly skim the over to see if this game is your cup of tea.


No, I couldn't. That might be my shortcoming.
 
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e_copley wrote:
hipshot wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
e_copley wrote:
Hello again, Mr. Desjardins - I think one good way to find out about how you feel about TW (aside from the title itself) is to download the rules from the Compass site.


Yeah, there are a lot of games that I'm potentially interested in but not enough so to try to learn the whole game through the rules. It's nice to put them online but I don't think it's very effective way of engaging potential customers compared to reviews and designer's notes.


Or an AAR with images so we can see it all in action. Or a video or 7 of the key components, and mechanics that make it worth the 100 page slog.
That would generate a bit of interest perhaps?


Hello, Kev - my comments:

1) I only suggested that you download the rules; I haven't suggested that anyone read them cover to cover. I would assume that having downloaded them, you could briefly skim the over to see if this game is your cup of tea. If so, great, if not, that's the way it goes.

2) re: video - various reviewers do video reviews on the Consimworld site; you may want to monitor that site to see if someone does do such a review;

3) re: images - the Compassgames site has a half a dozen images of the game components loaded there - have you logged onto that site?

4) re: both visuals and AAR's - don't assume that all information on this game is on Boardgamegeek. There are over 700 posts on this game on TW's Consimworld forum - and several of them have uploaded photos and AAR's. You may want to visit that site. Log onto Consimworld.com, click Forum, then look for "Global and Multifront" as the game category onthe drop-down menu. You will find a lot of information there.

ernie

Well I guess that is one way to attract buyers......
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Charles Stampley
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Don't worry Kevin, if it is out by Christmas I'll let you borrow my copy until I return.

I guess this goes back to the old bgg vs consimworld debate. I like both websites and I have been reading consimworld since the mid-90s and will continue to do so, but bgg is more user friendly especially when it comes to videos and photos. I would also guess that bgg has a larger audience than consimworld.

I'm sure once the game is released someone will post photos and video reviews and AARs. Unfortunately I am not able to do so from my work location. I would like to see more of a presence for this game on bgg simply because I know several people who do not visit consimworld and from reading the rules and looking at the AARs I think that it has potential to fill a niche that other strategic WWII games have missed.
 
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Ernie Copley
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stampdog316 wrote:
Don't worry Kevin, if it is out by Christmas I'll let you borrow my copy until I return.

I guess this goes back to the old bgg vs consimworld debate. I like both websites and I have been reading consimworld since the mid-90s and will continue to do so, but bgg is more user friendly especially when it comes to videos and photos. I would also guess that bgg has a larger audience than consimworld.

I'm sure once the game is released someone will post photos and video reviews and AARs. Unfortunately I am not able to do so from my work location. I would like to see more of a presence for this game on bgg simply because I know several people who do not visit consimworld and from reading the rules and looking at the AARs I think that it has potential to fill a niche that other strategic WWII games have missed.


Hi Mr. Stampley - oh yes, after publication, I do indeed expect people to post various images here on this forum...and I will be one of them. I do think it would be nice to show the actual finished product, rather than my playtest copy. So I'm waiting until I get my own copy of the finished product to do any photo postings.

Re: CSW vs. BGG - in the last couple of years, I've spent far more time on the former than the latter. But I do log onto both, as you can see above. My point to Kev and to others is that if there's a wealth of information on the game on another site, it might be worthwhile dropping in on that site.

ernie
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Kev.
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e_copley wrote:
stampdog316 wrote:
Don't worry Kevin, if it is out by Christmas I'll let you borrow my copy until I return.

I guess this goes back to the old bgg vs consimworld debate. I like both websites and I have been reading consimworld since the mid-90s and will continue to do so, but bgg is more user friendly especially when it comes to videos and photos. I would also guess that bgg has a larger audience than consimworld.

I'm sure once the game is released someone will post photos and video reviews and AARs. Unfortunately I am not able to do so from my work location. I would like to see more of a presence for this game on bgg simply because I know several people who do not visit consimworld and from reading the rules and looking at the AARs I think that it has potential to fill a niche that other strategic WWII games have missed.


Hi Mr. Stampley - oh yes, after publication, I do indeed expect people to post various images here on this forum...and I will be one of them. I do think it would be nice to show the actual finished product, rather than my playtest copy. So I'm waiting until I get my own copy of the finished product to do any photo postings.

Re: CSW vs. BGG - in the last couple of years, I've spent far more time on the former than the latter. But I do log onto both, as you can see above. My point to Kev and to others is that if there's a wealth of information on the game on another site, it might be worthwhile dropping in on that site.

ernie


Well guys I guess you missed my point, nevermind.
If the old school attitude of 'you can find me and my game if you want me' is going to prevail then there will be a very limited market for the game. I'm very familiar with CSW.

If I look at how some other designers attempt to engage the market so that more than the bare minimum pXXX is sold we see a stark difference here. This is important so that upon release we can find can find people to play against and find opponents on VASSAL, assuming it has a VASSAL module.

I guess the motivations of people are different. I love getting behind a game, but I am not going to support one that won't make an effort to engage me. The site, CSW and here indicate that this is something of a pet project perhaps, which may be very well done nevertheless it is not intended to be a release designed to contend and compete for share of wallet in the WWII Strategic game category with the likes of Prados, WIF or others.



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Ernie Copley
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hipshot wrote:
e_copley wrote:
stampdog316 wrote:
Don't worry Kevin, if it is out by Christmas I'll let you borrow my copy until I return.

I guess this goes back to the old bgg vs consimworld debate. I like both websites and I have been reading consimworld since the mid-90s and will continue to do so, but bgg is more user friendly especially when it comes to videos and photos. I would also guess that bgg has a larger audience than consimworld.

I'm sure once the game is released someone will post photos and video reviews and AARs. Unfortunately I am not able to do so from my work location. I would like to see more of a presence for this game on bgg simply because I know several people who do not visit consimworld and from reading the rules and looking at the AARs I think that it has potential to fill a niche that other strategic WWII games have missed.


Hi Mr. Stampley - oh yes, after publication, I do indeed expect people to post various images here on this forum...and I will be one of them. I do think it would be nice to show the actual finished product, rather than my playtest copy. So I'm waiting until I get my own copy of the finished product to do any photo postings.

Re: CSW vs. BGG - in the last couple of years, I've spent far more time on the former than the latter. But I do log onto both, as you can see above. My point to Kev and to others is that if there's a wealth of information on the game on another site, it might be worthwhile dropping in on that site.

ernie


Well guys I guess you missed my point, nevermind.
If the old school attitude of 'you can find me and my game if you want me' is going to prevail then there will be a very limited market for the game. I'm very familiar with CSW.

If I look at how some other designers attempt to engage the market so that more than the bare minimum pXXX is sold we see a stark difference here. This is important so that upon release we can find can find people to play against and find opponents on VASSAL, assuming it has a VASSAL module.

I guess the motivations of people are different. I love getting behind a game, but I am not going to support one that won't make an effort to engage me. The site, CSW and here indicate that this is something of a pet project perhaps, which may be very well done nevertheless it is not intended to be a release designed to contend and compete for share of wallet in the WWII Strategic game category with the likes of Prados, WIF or others.





Hello, Kev - my thoughts:

1) it's not difficult to find out any information about this game if you have any genuine interest in doing so. You evidently don't, which is fine. I can't please everyone. There are several titles out there - you apparently like those other titles better. That's the way the mop flops.

2) I have no idea what you mean by "engaging the market." Btw, I'm a business professor, and I've taught marketing many times, so I can discuss target marketing, consumer demographics, consumer psychographics, and so on and so on if you like. However, I don't see the point. It is indeed true that I don't have snappy video for you. Eric Harvey didn't have one for Advanced ETO, Bruce Harper didn't have one for Advanced Third Reich, or A World at War, Avalanche didn't have one for John Prados's Third Reich, etc. So I'm still in the dark about your standards of comparison.

3) Speaking of marketing, let's talk about VASSAL. You haven't mentioned how much Compass Games would make on a VASSAL module. I think the correct answer is "nothing." I am keenly aware that some people do use that system. I am also aware that in some cases, the existence of such a module is a big deal. But I do not use VASSAL modules, and I can't provide you with one. If Compass authorizes someone to create such a module, they're the publishers, so it's their call. In the meantime, I have the not-so-minor problem of trying to help Compass get the hard copy of my game out the door after years of development.

4) I'm especially intrigued by your use of "Prados" and WiF as comparisons. If by "Prados" you mean John Prados' Third Reich, I'd be happy to discuss that one with you; ditto the original Rise and Decline of the Third Reich; and ditto Wif. I own all three, and have played all three. I can discuss all of them in minute detail, and explain how each differs from TW, if you like. It is a competitive market out there.

ernie
 
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