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Subject: New HB Identity - What would it take to make you give up a credit for first install? rss

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Noah D

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So with the announcement that the first Data Pack would contain new identities for Anarch and Haas Bioroid, my first thought was that HB seemed a poor choice. Personally I find
Haas Bioroid: Engineering the Future
Gain 1 [Credit] the first time you install a card each turn.

to be easilly the best Corporation identity, and would go so far as to say that none of the others even comes close. Which naturally made me wonder "will anyone even use the new identity?"

So, what do you guys think? Feel free to share you opinions on the strengths of the current identities (tell me it's the worst of the lot if you wish ), to suggest what you think we might see with the new identity, and to say what it might actually take to temp you to swap out the easy money from HB: EtF.

Just to get things rolling how about this:
Haas Bioroid: Engineered to Endure
The innermost piece of ICE on every server has +1 Strength

Would I play it?
A gross over-simplification is that I'd be giving up 1 credit per turn in order to cost the Runner 1 extra credit per run. (Many other factors in there of course that make that inaccurate) Yeah, I'd at-least take it for a spin.
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B C Z
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Re: New HB Identity - What would it take to make you give up a credit per install?
Other items in line with HB's kind of 'thing'.

May spend (some amount of credits) to take an extra action, once per turn.

All Bioroids gain +1 Strength

All Bioroids gain one "End the Run" Subroutine

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Noah D

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byronczimmer wrote:
May spend (some amount of credits) to take an extra action, once per turn.

Eh, don't really care for this idea, nor do I see them doing it. The cost would have to be really high to not being completely imbalanced (and totally marginalize Biotic Labor), and once it was balanced it'd just more situational than I would like to see for Identity powers.

byronczimmer wrote:
All Bioroids gain one "End the Run" Subroutine

Ouch! That could be gnarly for the Runner! especially as more Bioroids are introduced down the line... Yeah, that might well temp me to try some different builds.
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Geoff Hollis
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Yes, the HB identity is pretty solid, but it is also incredibly constraining. It forces you into a very specific play style, which does not leave much room for flexibility (unlike, say, they Weyland identity which has the potential to be as effective with a larger cardpool, but less constraining). I would really love to see a card that sacrifices some raw power for a little more flexibility.

Quote:

Just to get things rolling how about this:
Haas Bioroid: Engineered to Endure
The innermost piece of ICE on every server has +1 Strength


I would consider playing this. It gives you a little more flexibility in the early game. It also makes rototurret even more of a force to be reckoned with.

Maybe something weird like:
All out of faction ice gain the "bioroid" keyword, a "deal 1 brain damage" subroutine as its first subroutine, and the text "runner may spend [click] to break any subroutine on this ice"

Or:
Any non-agenda card may be played as a barrier-bioroid ice that has strength 2, cost 3, and the subroutines: "deal 1 brain damage", "end the run".
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James Buchanan
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Yeah, HBs power is pretty darn good. Although, I really like NBNs recurring credits too.

However, I can think of some tempting things.

Hass Bioroid: Efficiency Innovators
2 Recurring Credits. Can be used to rez ICE.

Hass Bioroid: Now User Friendly
Runner takes one Brain damage if he steals an Agenda worth 3 or more points.

Hass Bioroid: Part of the Family
Click: Runner loses a click at the beginning of next turn.
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Wesley Kinslow
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↳ Do one brain damage ↳ Do one brain damage ↳ End the run
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byronczimmer wrote:


All Bioroids gain one "End the Run" Subroutine



I think this might tempt me away from the base set HB identity but it would still be close.

I love the Bioroid ice and wish it was just a tad bit better. This would certainly put all of them over the top and off set that extra credit a turn. Plus it would give incentive to some neglected cards (I'm looking at you, Viktor)
 
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James Buchanan
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Yeah currently the only way you can rez ICE on the corp's turn would be Forced Activation Orders. Which would be a fun situation for this Identity.
 
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Simon Skov
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Don't forget about Forged Activation Orders
Edit: ninja'd again
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JBgames wrote:

...
Hass Bioroid: Part of the Family
Click: Runner loses a click at the beginning of next turn.


This would be interesting, I have mixed feelings on a card that can shutdown Wyldside.
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Scott C
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FileAccess wrote:
My concern was that this could give HB four credits per Corp-Runner cycle (two credits on the Corp turn, two credits on the Runner turn).

Recurring credits only refresh at the start of your own turn.
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Anthony Giovannetti
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All Bioroids gain one "End the Run" Subroutine seems really strong, I would play that.

Ichi becomes even more insane.
 
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Mychal
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SneakySly wrote:
All Bioroids gain one "End the Run" Subroutine seems really strong, I would play that.


I would definitely play it if it existed, but I hope they don't come out with any identities that strong. I'd like the identity powers to remain minor benefits so that the older ones don't become obsolete over time.
 
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Noah D

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Kaffis wrote:
FileAccess wrote:
My concern was that this could give HB four credits per Corp-Runner cycle (two credits on the Corp turn, two credits on the Runner turn).

Recurring credits only refresh at the start of your own turn.

Yeah, exactly. It'd be just the same as NBN's identity. They can use the credits on their own turn for a SEA source trace, but if they do they won't have them to pay to increase the trace from a Data Raven on the Runner's turn.

JBgames wrote:
Hass Bioroid: Efficiency Innovators
2 Recurring Credits. Can be used to rez ICE.

The really interesting thing about this idea is that instead of influencing the way the corp plays (installing cards one at a time on separate turns) it could influence the way the Runner played:
The Runner would be reluctant to run a single piece of unrezzed Ice on a turn, and might prefer to take turns preparing, and then devote entire turns to multiple runs in order to minimize the use the Corp would gain from their identity.
 
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Matt - Conduit23
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To go with a completely different playstyle..

Haas-Bioroid: Preparing for the Inevitable
At the end of your turn, if you didn't install any cards, gain 2 Credits.

Or..

Haas-Bioroid: Engineered Defenses
1 Credit: Once per turn, increase the strength of a rezzed piece of ICE by 1 for the remainder of the run.

And I like the idea of making the runner lose clicks so they can't vault over my Bioroids so easily, but maybe too strong for an Identity. Maybe an Asset or Operation?
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Noah D

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mdanuser wrote:

Haas-Bioroid: Preparing for the Inevitable
At the end of your turn, if you didn't install any cards, gain 2 Credits.

Haha, this is cool. And at-least this allow shipment from mirrormorph a chance to synergize nicely instead of clashing horribly as with the Core's identity.
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James Buchanan
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mdanuser wrote:

And I like the idea of making the runner lose clicks so they can't vault over my Bioroids so easily, but maybe too strong for an Identity. Maybe an Asset or Operation?


Yeah I agree with you there. It would make good asset I think. Some sort of robot dancers to go work at Wyldside and make noise spend half the night there. So far all IDs have dealt with credits or trashing cards or both. I wonder if this will be consistent. Other game effects like clicks, exposing, ICE strength, brain damage, may just be considered too powerful for ID cards.
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A more balanced version would probably be spend 1-2 bits and a click to make the runner lose a click.
 
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Joseph Courtight
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I think the new HB identity will have no ability, but will allow for a 40 card minimum size and 12 influences or some other combination that lowers the deck size minimum.
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Mychal
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Dalek5 wrote:
I think the new HB identity will have no ability, but will allow for a 40 card minimum size and 12 influences or some other combination that lowers the deck size minimum.


I hope the deck minimum doesn't go down. Even though it would be interesting to see the value of more consistent draws weighed against an elevated threat of decking out, 45 still seems like a good lower limit.


However, I wouldn't mind seeing an identity that has no ability, but an influence limit of 18...
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Noah D

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Skylar114 wrote:
Dalek5 wrote:
I think the new HB identity will have no ability, but will allow for a 40 card minimum size and 12 influences or some other combination that lowers the deck size minimum.


I hope the deck minimum doesn't go down. Even though it would be interesting to see the value of more consistent draws weighed against an elevated threat of decking out, 45 still seems like a good lower limit.


However, I wouldn't mind seeing an identity that has no ability, but an influence limit of 18...


I'm guessing these sorts of things will come a bit further down the road and we'll get an HB identity with some new ability, but of course I could be completely wrong on that count
 
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FileAccess wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
All Bioroids gain +1 Strength


I like this idea, but that seems like it could also be too powerful. HB could field nine Bioroid ICE right now, which seems hard enough to combat on its own without +1 Strength to all of them.

Perhaps something more along the lines of their upgrades? How about: "Once per turn when a run is declared, you can pay 1 Credit to give +1 Strength to any rezzed ICE."

Perhaps this is too weak and/or complicated of an ability. In general abilities seem to be simple and small yet significant, and this doesn't seem simple or significant. Hm...


The cool thing is +STR doesn't matter against a Bioroid if you spend the clicks, only when using breakers.
 
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JBgames wrote:
Yeah currently the only way you can rez ICE on the runner's turn would be Forced Activation Orders. Which would be a fun situation for this Identity.


Umm, you can only rez ICE on the Runner's Turn (during a Run or in response to FAO), or as a result of a PriReq Agenda.

The latter doesn't cost credits, so I think people are saying something they don't intend.
 
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Scott C
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FileAccess wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
The cool thing is +STR doesn't matter against a Bioroid if you spend the clicks, only when using breakers.


Fair point. However, if you have two Bioroids on the same server, or if you want to make more than one run in a turn, then you can't rely on your clicks to get you through.

Which is why the ability has relevance. BT's point was simply that the Bioroid click-break keeps a "+1 Strength to multiple ice" ability in check so it's not just so completely broken you'd toss it from the drawing board without consideration.
 
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FileAccess wrote:
Kaffis wrote:
Which is why the ability has relevance. BT's point was simply that the Bioroid click-break keeps a "+1 Strength to multiple ice" ability in check so it's not just so completely broken you'd toss it from the drawing board without consideration.


I guess I view "forcing" the runner to spend clicks and/or being unable to perform a second run as still rather powerful. However, I will defer to those with more experience in terms of balance.


I'm not forcing them to do anything.

They can choose to 'Not Run' as many times as they like.
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Bob Smithy

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How about abilities that are 1-time only?

•After the draw phase of your first turn, you may draw X cards. You must then install X cards, using no clicks.
(These aren't necessarily Haas, but proof of concept)
•NBN/Weyland: Give yourself one bad publicity. If you do, the current trace automatically succedes. Use only once, and only after the runner has announced their final link value.
•Jinteki: The cost of rezzing AP ice is lowered by 1.
•Haas: 2(credit): Add one "End the run" subroutine to the currenty encountered ice, after all existing subroutines.
 
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