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Subject: Newton says: 7 Wonders: mucha pasta y poca maravilla (Spanish review) rss

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Ruben Cabezon
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Sé que me voy a ganar abucheos... pero para eso están las reseñas, para dar una opinión y para que alguien que piense en comprarse un juego vea los aspecto positivos y negativos del mismo.

De 7 Wonders se han dicho muchas cosas buenas: que si rápido, que si fácil, que si bonito, que si divertido, que si original... Bueno, estoy de acuerdo con algunas de estas cosas. 7 wonders no es un mal juego, pero tampoco es la maravilla que parece que todo el mundo te vende. Y ya que va de 7 maravillas, aquí van 7 razones por las que no lo es:

1.-Es un juego de cartas. SÓLO de cartas y nada más. Un juego llamado 7 wonders, que trata sobre las maravillas del mundo antíguo, como que esperas que traiga algo más. Por ejemplo figuras, alguna estructura como la torre del Shogun, o aunque fuera un triste dado molón. No. Cartas y unos pocos marcadores de cartón... Ah, cierto, y tableros personales para los jugadores, estilo Stone Age. mmm... ¿Gracias?

2.-No es TAN original. Como si no hubieran juegos de cartas por ahí... La única cosa que me pareció mínimamente nueva es la gestión de la mano. El pasarla a los otros jugadores te permite hacer estrategias diferentes, pero a fin de cuentas no es más que decidir entre lo que te va bien a ti y lo que le va bien a los demás, y eso... eso sí que no es nuevo.

3.-La caja es ENORME. Otro Dominion... ¿En serio? Señores de Asmodee... ¿Están de coña? Algo que cabe en una caja tipo RftG, ¿me lo multiplican por dos sólo para que el dibujo de la tapa se vea más en las tiendas?

4.-NO es para 2 jugadores. Sí, ya sé que se puede jugar con el jugador virtual... Eso para mi es un parche para poder poner un 2 en las especificaciones y vender más. Cuando se juega con dos jugadores pierde mucho, muchísimo.

5.-Es un desorden absoluto en la mesa. Ya podéis tener una mesa GRANDE. Si queréis jugar cuatro personas necesitáis una mesa de 6 como mínimo. Y es que no había visto un tablero personal tan inútil desde hace tiempo. Sólo sirve para poner cuatro marcadores y para que se vea el dibujo. Las cartas se tienen que poner alrededor y ¡no son pocas! Eso hace que la zona de cada jugador se expanda tremendamente y consuma la mesa enseguida.

6.-Es confuso. Con una zona de juego amplia y muchas cartas, encima tenemos que tenerlas todas bajo control para saber si podemos conseguir alguna de las construcciones gratuitamente por tener los pre-requisitos ya construidos. Sí, a medida que juegas le pillas el tranquillo, más que nada porque te aprendes las cartas de memoria. Pero el caso es que con tanta carta en la mesa, a pesar de que están diseñadas para que se vea toda la información, tanto colorido, tanta escalera de cartas y tanto cambiar de mano... al final te acabas mareando de tanto buscar qué puedes conseguir y qué no, qué estratégia seguir y cuál no...

7.-Es CARO. Y es que yo podría vivir con todos estos "problemas" que tiene el juego. Incluso con que le dieran el Spiel des Jahres... Pero por lo que no paso es por pagar los 40 € que valía. Sí, ahora ya se puede conseguir por menos, pero ahí han estado exprimiendo al personal durante dos años. Parece que han encontrado un negocio excelente... Tenían una idea para un juego, le dieron un tema relativamente novedoso, minimizaron en componentes, usaron un colorido y un grafismo llamativo y, ¡ale, que estos tontos pagan lo que sea!

Y aún tengo más detalles que, para mí, hacen que este no sea el juego tan especial que nos han querido hacer creer. Como ejemplo la anécdota de la primera partida: Mi mujer, le gusta jugar pero no es una jugona empedernida y le gusta más los juegos rápidos... Pues bien. Traigo el 7 wonders, del que tanto habíamos oido hablar. Echamos la primera partida, que evidentemente acaba rápido. Y la pregunta que me hizo mi mujer fue la peor que te puede hacer una mujer: "¡Cómo! ¿Ya?". Demasiado para querer comprarlo. Gracias a que tengo una ludoteca cerca de casa de donde pude sacar el juego y probarlo intensivamente antes de comprarlo, porque yo también había caído bajo el hechizo de este saca-cuartos con colores. 7 wonders es, según mi opinión, la muestra de que hay veces que un juego es revolucionario porque nos dicen que lo es, no porque realmente lo sea.
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6element
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Re: Newton's says: 7 Wonders: mucha pasta y poca maravilla (Spanish review)
Everybody knows that the game quality is defined by the size of the box, how well it is "stuffed", and the game should not cost more than a BigMac.

The game manages to be "unclear" and "not so original" at the same time. If it's not original, it should be easy to learn by analogy, right?

And the reviewer "didn't get" absolutely amazing 2-player variant. Well, it's called "expert" for a reason.

The verdict: yet another unprofessional review.

PS: My first language is Russian, but I'm using English here, so people don't need to do google translation. Is it too much to ask?
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Ruben Cabezon
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Re: Newton's says: 7 Wonders: mucha pasta y poca maravilla (Spanish review)
Yep. I'm unprofessional in the sense that I'm not payed for doing it. But if you call me unprofessional just because I do not agree with your personal point of view, then you're completely missing the point of doing a review.

In any case, from your reply it is (at least to me) not clear what you want to say. Maybe is due to the poor English that you use, because I think that, in fact, up to the second sentence you were somehow supporting my point of view.

In any case, if your Spanish is as good as your English, I'm not sure that you have fully understood this review.

Next time try to be polite with other people's point of view instead of calling them "unprofessional" just because they don't share your opinion.
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Ruben Cabezon
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6element wrote:
PS: My first language is Russian, but I'm using English here, so people don't need to do google translation. Is it too much to ask?


Btw, after re-reading your reply I think I could understand a complain about this review written in Spanish. First, there is no rule in BGG that forces me to write a review in English. Second, it was clearly stated in the title that it was written in Spanish. Third, nobody put a gun in your head to read it if you do not speak Spanish.

So, as I wrote it just for fun, yes, it is too much to ask me to write it in English. Mostly if it is asked in your very rude way.

This induces me to think that you used google translator to read my review and to post your reply for complaining instead of asking politely. THAT's unprofessional!
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IMHO the most important thing about a game - is it fun to play or not. Is it easy to learn, how long does it take to master, does it become boring after a few dozens of plays, does it allow for variety of strategies. So decent review should cover that at least to some degree.

Regarding the price - if the game is fun to play more than 100 times - it's 50 cents per play, right? Or is it still too much?


PS: My Spanish is much worse than my Polish (but much better than Finnish) - as I said, I used google translation. Feel free to re-post it in English, other readers might appretiate it here.
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Ruben Cabezon
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As I clearly said at the beginning of the review, a lot has been written about 7 wonders. This was not a review meant to repeat all that. It was meant to show the negative sides of the game. To show them openly to any future buyer in order to have all the information regarding the game.

In general, reviewers are biased in favor of the games they review, and 7 wonders is not an exception. I honestly think that looking at the other side of the coin provides a valuable information.

That said, it is pointless to explain the virtues of 7 wonders in this review. There are many other reviews for that.
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You believe that size of the box, amount of "stuff" in it, and table area required to play the game is important information missing from other reviews. Since fun and replayability is covered by other reviewers you don't even discuss it. Ok, I got it.

Just out of pure curiosity, how many times did you play 7w?
 
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Ruben Cabezon
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Look buddy. I know that 7W is the perfect game for you and your "little precious", mostly knowing that in your list you have only 5 rated games (all of them with a 10) out of 8, and they are 7W, dominion and expansions. But you will have to deal with the fact that these games also have negative sides. You don't want to see it? No problem. I don't want to convince you.

I respect that you have a different opinion. You should learn to do the same.
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So, how many games of 7w have you played?

(0 is perfectly acceptable answer. To check the price, size of the box and amount of "stuff" in it you don't need to play at all)

PS: I don't mind different opinions (relevant and based on something) and I totally admit being biased towards 7w.
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Ruben Cabezon
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I've played 7W thoroughly, with friends and with my wife (specifically those are my logged plays).

Checking the price, the things inside, and the space that it consumes it is something to take into account when buying a game (mostly when you have more than 100 games at home, not only 8). Paying between 30 and 40 € for a game that, in my opinion, has more hype that gameplay is not worthy. You continuously say "size", "price", "stuff". I perfectly see that these are the only things that you understood from my review. There was more. Maybe you should read it again with a better translator.

I talked about the ergonomics of the game. It is a mess in the table even for only two players. The learning curve is steep, but not because of the rules (they are easy) but because of the need of learning the cards. You need several plays to read properly and at a glance all the pre-requisites. And it is just a card game! 40 € for a card game that the newest thing that brings is passing the hand to the neighbor and cool pictures. No way!

7W has been a very overpriced game for many reasons. It became a disappointment for me the more I played it. There are many games out there that offer more for less.

I could have discussed this with you in a more friendly way if you had showed more respect in your very first reply. Up to now, I'm fed up. Feel free to comment as much as you want.
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I agree with this review.

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My problem with your review is not that you don't like the game but that you don't discuss gameplay with any sufficient depth.

But I can see that with over 100 games you want a game which is very cheap (how many times have you mentioned price in the last post?), compact, very easy to learn / not too deep / can be fully "consumed" in a couple of weeks. That's an interesting set of requirements.

Regarding respect - sorry, but I see lack of respect in posting Spanish review on English board and constantly asking me to use better translator. I'd say that posting a link to review placed somewhere else or providing some translation is at least worth considering next time.

Good luck, play well and have fun!
 
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6element:
There is a difference between a cheap, poorly produced game and a quality game. This game's production values suck so bad for 7W it isn't funny. They dropped the ball terribly on this game at the printer ( I know, "your" copy is perfect - that is hardly the norm) with one of the decks having variant shades on the backs of cards giving clues as to what the card is at a glance in your opponents hands or revealing to your opponents what it might be in your hand. Then, they continued the fiasco by sending out 'replacement' decks that were also defective. I've STILL yet to receive a playable Age III deck. I stopped trying after the third try.

As for the game preferences, you seem a bit elitist in your requirements for a good game. Not everyone has such lofty requirements for thier games as you do. That even begs the question why you even like 7W gien your "interesting set of requirements" for a more complicated, deep game. Deep 7W is not.

You can pitch this game into the fire at your next marshmallow roast. It is the single most overated game on BGG and the fanboy community comes running to the rescue whenever someone negatively reviews it.

As for posting a review in Spanish - you should perhaps understand it is a multicultural community here. The fact that you cannot understand it or care not to try or even find a reasonable translation means you should hit the next button and continue on your way without complaint. Like games other than 7W, there are better threads to investigate.
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Ruben Cabezon
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markgravitygood wrote:
6element:
There is a difference between a cheap, poorly produced game and a quality game. This game's production values suck so bad for 7W it isn't funny. They dropped the ball terribly on this game at the printer ( I know, "your" copy is perfect - that is hardly the norm) with one of the decks having variant shades on the backs of cards giving clues as to what the card is at a glance in your opponents hands or revealing to your opponents what it might be in your hand. Then, they continued the fiasco by sending out 'replacement' decks that were also defective. I've STILL yet to receive a playable Age III deck. I stopped trying after the third try.

As for the game preferences, you seem a bit elitist in your requirements for a good game. Not everyone has such lofty requirements for thier games as you do. That even begs the question why you even like 7W gien your "interesting set of requirements" for a more complicated, deep game. Deep 7W is not.

You can pitch this game into the fire at your next marshmallow roast. It is the single most overated game on BGG and the fanboy community comes running to the rescue whenever someone negatively reviews it.

As for posting a review in Spanish - you should perhaps understand it is a multicultural community here. The fact that you cannot understand it or care not to try or even find a reasonable translation means you should hit the next button and continue on your way without complaint. Like games other than 7W, there are better threads to investigate.


Wonderful reply.
 
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Bruno Mora
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Ciertamente el precio es lo que menos me gusta, nunca me atrajo Dominion en parte por ser solo cartas y en parte por el precio, pero con este cai.
40€ por el juego base mas 20€ por expansion... ya has llegado a los 80€ de un descent.
Duele, la verdad.
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Ruben Cabezon
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Bruneleschi wrote:
Ciertamente el precio es lo que menos me gusta, nunca me atrajo Dominion en parte por ser solo cartas y en parte por el precio, pero con este cai.
40€ por el juego base mas 20€ por expansion... ya has llegado a los 80€ de un descent.
Duele, la verdad.


Ciertamente. El juego en sí no está mal y entiendo porqué le gusta a mucha gente. Pero creo que siempre ha estado sobrevalorado y eso ha hecho que el precio se mantenga super alto. Si valiera, por ejemplo 20 €, aún me lo pensaría. Pero de todas formas 7W tiene otras cosas que en sí no me motivan.
 
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realnewton wrote:

I respect that you have a different opinion. You should learn to do the same.


Gracias por tu opinion, y me parece que la mayoria que dices es cierto (por ejemplo, que 7 wonders necesita espacio), pero creo que estas problemas estan pequenas, y hay ventajes de sus quejas que no menciona.

Las reglas no estan tan simple pero me parece que la familia puede entenderlo. Juegos de estrategias tiene mas reglas como juegos de fiesta como Dixit para permitir el desarollo de estrategias.

Aunque el juego tiene monedas de carton (y tableritos de Wonder), es cierto que la mayoria del juego esta cartas. Pero estas cartas estan "comprimible" en la mesa que no puedes hacer con un tablero. Tambien, puede mover las cartas a una caja mas pequena si quieras mas espacio en su estante (como otras personas hacen con Dominion). Yo defiendo los juegos de cartas porque me gusta su portabilidad y simplicidad -- todo el juego es en las cartas y componentes.

Donde vivo (en Estados Unidos), puedo obtener 7 wonders por $32.29 en Amazon. Entiendo que puede cambiar con su pais (y puede estar caro en otros paises), pero el precio aqui es normal.

Es posible que sus expectaciones no estuvieran satisfecho, y por esta razon, las resenas estan importantes. Si quieres un juego grande, puedo entender que no quieres comprar un juego con cartas, o si quieres un juego para una fiesta, no quieres prestar tiempo para leer todas las reglas.

Pero personas que quiere un juego de estrategia con cartas, especialmente un juego con varios caminos al exito, deben tratar este juego. Dudo que algun juego pueda satisfechar todo el mundo, pero creo que este juego es accesible a muchas personas.

(Mi espanol no esta perfecto -- puedes entender mi mensaje.)
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Jacek Deimer
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contiguity wrote:
realnewton wrote:

I respect that you have a different opinion. You should learn to do the same.


Gracias por tu opinion, y me parece que la mayoria que dices es cierto (por ejemplo, que 7 wonders necesita espacio), pero creo que estas problemas estan pequenas, y hay ventajes de sus quejas que no menciona.

Las reglas no estan tan simple pero me parece que la familia puede entenderlo. Juegos de estrategias tiene mas reglas como juegos de fiesta como Dixit para permitir el desarollo de estrategias.

Aunque el juego tiene monedas de carton (y tableritos de Wonder), es cierto que la mayoria del juego esta cartas. Pero estas cartas estan "comprimible" en la mesa que no puedes hacer con un tablero. Tambien, puede mover las cartas a una caja mas pequena si quieras mas espacio en su estante (como otras personas hacen con Dominion). Yo defiendo los juegos de cartas porque me gusta su portabilidad y simplicidad -- todo el juego es en las cartas y componentes.

Donde vivo (en Estados Unidos), puedo obtener 7 wonders por $32.29 en Amazon. Entiendo que puede cambiar con su pais (y puede estar caro en otros paises), pero el precio aqui es normal.

Es posible que sus expectaciones no estuvieran satisfecho, y por esta razon, las resenas estan importantes. Si quieres un juego grande, puedo entender que no quieres comprar un juego con cartas, o si quieres un juego para una fiesta, no quieres prestar tiempo para leer todas las reglas.

Pero personas que quiere un juego de estrategia con cartas, especialmente un juego con varios caminos al exito, deben tratar este juego. Dudo que algun juego pueda satisfechar todo el mundo, pero creo que este juego es accesible a muchas personas.

(Mi espanol no esta perfecto -- puedes entender mi mensaje.)


Excellent reply, I agree that small issues mentioned by the reviewer are small and easy to resolve.

And here are my own opinions about few of this issues:

1.Price point - it's a bit high, but I think it's offset by amount of plays you can get from this. This is a game that you can play with many different people, casula nad non-gamers. I bet it will hit table much more often than a big and more expensive heavy-weight game, like Descent or Mage Knight. If you play a lot with casual gamers the price per game will be very low. If you wan't top play it only few times a year, then it's bad investment.

2.Box size - that's just marketing. And many people will apreciate that you can repack game into into small compact box if you wish.

3.Table space - many other games take a lot of table space, especially ones with a lot of elements. I take it as characteristic of some games. With some effort you can manage to squeize most cards under the wonder board. We often play 4p on a 60x60cm coffe table.

4.2-player variant - well, it works well. Thats all I can say, it's harder, more complicated, more confusing, more cuthroat and yea it's a bit awkward. It just makes game more heavy, some people don't like it, some love it.

And think that review that focused only on negatives points (and especially very minor ones) is a bad review. That's all.

And about all this praise and awards and great reviews and fanboys and stuff like that. You have to realize that every game has it's target audience. And rewards should reflect how good the game is for its audience. You can't easily compare Ticket to Ride, Chess, Magic the Gathering, Mage Knight and Panzer General using the same criteria, they are games for different people/groups.
So, 7 Wonders is light game, party game, casual game with some strategic/tactical depth. It's a game for people that want something more complicated than TtR, Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan, yet still quite easy to learn and accessible. It's not the best game of all times, but it may one of the best for its target audience...

Yes, I'm fanboy, you don't have to remind me that!
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Jacek Deimer
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markgravitygood wrote:

I've STILL yet to receive a playable Age III deck. I stopped trying after the third try.


From other thread we know thay your first replacement deck had some cards glued together, but what was wrong with second and third? Could you share more about your experience?
 
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Ruben Cabezon
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contiguity wrote:

Gracias por tu opinion, y me parece que la mayoria que dices es cierto (por ejemplo, que 7 wonders necesita espacio), pero creo que estas problemas estan pequenas, y hay ventajes de sus quejas que no menciona.


Totalmente de acuerdo. No menciono ninguno de los puntos positivos del juegos (que tiene muchos, ciertamente). Precisamente esa era la intención: hacer una crítica tan sólo de los aspectos negativos del juego en contrapartida de los cientos de críticas positivas.

contiguity wrote:

Las reglas no estan tan simple pero me parece que la familia puede entenderlo. Juegos de estrategias tiene mas reglas como juegos de fiesta como Dixit para permitir el desarollo de estrategias.


Realmente no considero que sea un juego complejo. Se puede aprender a jugar muy rápido. Mi queja no es contra las reglas, sino más bien contra la necesidad de aprenderse muchas de las interrelaciones entre las cartas para poder sacarle el verdadero potencial al juego. Y creo que es consecuencia directa de que es muy desorganizado sobre la mesa.


contiguity wrote:

Aunque el juego tiene monedas de carton (y tableritos de Wonder), es cierto que la mayoria del juego esta cartas. Pero estas cartas estan "comprimible" en la mesa que no puedes hacer con un tablero.

Cierto. Con un juego de cartas el área jugable suele ser más compacta que con un juego de tablero. Precisamente eso me molesta de 7W, que a pesar de comprimirse (colocando carta una encima de otra) sigue devorando mesa cual leucocito...

contiguity wrote:

Tambien, puede mover las cartas a una caja mas pequena si quieras mas espacio en su estante (como otras personas hacen con Dominion). Yo defiendo los juegos de cartas porque me gusta su portabilidad y simplicidad -- todo el juego es en las cartas y componentes.

Exacto! Yo también adoro los juegos de cartas! Mis quejas no tienen tanto que ver con que sea de cartas en sí, si no lo sobrevalorado que está y lo que ocupa, para ser lo que es. Por ejemplo, RftG es un juego tan bueno o más que 7W, ocupa la mitad y que yo sepa también vale la mitad.

contiguity wrote:

Donde vivo (en Estados Unidos), puedo obtener 7 wonders por $32.29 en Amazon. Entiendo que puede cambiar con su pais (y puede estar caro en otros paises), pero el precio aqui es normal.

Yo normalmente compro juegos en Alemania y ahora mismo creo que cuesta 32€. Eso no es mucho dinero, pero sí creo que es mucho para lo que proporciona el juego en sí. No sólo en componentes sino también en jugabilidad. Si 7W valiera 20€ probablemente no tendría esa sensación de que nos están robando descaradamente. ninja

contiguity wrote:

Es posible que sus expectaciones no estuvieran satisfecho, y por esta razon, las resenas estan importantes. Si quieres un juego grande, puedo entender que no quieres comprar un juego con cartas, o si quieres un juego para una fiesta, no quieres prestar tiempo para leer todas las reglas.

Absolutamente de acuerdo. En realidad no tenía ninguna expectativa, pero he decir que al abrir la caja esperaba más de un juego que tiene la palabra "Wonders" en su título . Respecto a las reglas, repito que no me parecieron complicadas. Es la jugabilidad la que no me gusta. No tiene ergonomía ninguna.

contiguity wrote:

Pero personas que quiere un juego de estrategia con cartas, especialmente un juego con varios caminos al exito, deben tratar este juego. Dudo que algun juego pueda satisfechar todo el mundo, pero creo que este juego es accesible a muchas personas.

Ciertamente. Pero creo que hay muchos otros juegos también accesibles, (muchos de ellos de cartas), con diversas formas de ganar, muy escalables tanto en jugadores como en profundidad estratégica, que son más baratos, ocupan menos y se les ha prestado menos atención que a 7W.

contiguity wrote:

(Mi espanol no esta perfecto -- puedes entender mi mensaje.)

Tu Español es más que decente y se te entiende perfectamente! Te agredezco mucho el esfuerzo de escribir en Español.
 
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Ruben Cabezon
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Reid666 wrote:

Excellent reply, I agree that small issues mentioned by the reviewer are small and easy to resolve.

hehehe... The point is that paying 40€ for a card game I would expect not to have the need of solving anything.


Reid666 wrote:

1.Price point - it's a bit high, but I think it's offset by amount of plays you can get from this. This is a game that you can play with many different people, casula nad non-gamers. I bet it will hit table much more often than a big and more expensive heavy-weight game, like Descent or Mage Knight. If you play a lot with casual gamers the price per game will be very low. If you wan't top play it only few times a year, then it's bad investment.

Good point but replayability is not excuse for overpricing. The price of a game should be set by the cost of printing, components, delivery and general idea. The point is that there are games around that you pay for marketing and general idea (and more for the first one). Something moves in my guts when I think that two 7W almost allows me to buy a Twilight Imperium. Many games scale brutally well in number of players and game difficulty at a less price. So, why is 7W so pricy? In my opinion, marketing + hype.

Reid666 wrote:

2.Box size - that's just marketing. And many people will apreciate that you can repack game into into small compact box if you wish.

That's exactly what I was saying. After overpaying a game I still have to work in order to make it fit in my shelves...? No way! arrrh

Reid666 wrote:

3.Table space - many other games take a lot of table space, especially ones with a lot of elements. I take it as characteristic of some games. With some effort you can manage to squeize most cards under the wonder board. We often play 4p on a 60x60cm coffe table.

Cool man! I know many industries that will pay for such optimization abilities. In any case, I don't care about table consuming games. That's something I like, but if it is not at a cost of disorder increasing. Somehow that's the feeling I always had when playing: F**k! This is a mess!

Reid666 wrote:

4.2-player variant - well, it works well. Thats all I can say, it's harder, more complicated, more confusing, more cuthroat and yea it's a bit awkward. It just makes game more heavy, some people don't like it, some love it.

Robot players work better for some games, and worse for others. In 7W I didn't like it a lot. For me it is a game for 3+ players, range in which it works really well. Somehow, the feeling I had is that it was a patch for putting a 2 in the number of players and sell more.

Reid666 wrote:

And think that review that focused only on negatives points (and especially very minor ones) is a bad review. That's all.

Of course it is focused only in the negative points. That was the main purpose! To expose them! That's the thing that non-Spanish speakers cannot get from the review. It is explained at the very beginning that there are many reviews about 7W explaining mainly the good points. My idea was doing exactly the opposite. So the focus IS the negative points. Of course! So I think it is a "wonder"ful review!

Reid666 wrote:

And about all this praise and awards and great reviews and fanboys and stuff like that. You have to realize that every game has it's target audience. And rewards should reflect how good the game is for its audience. You can't easily compare Ticket to Ride, Chess, Magic the Gathering, Mage Knight and Panzer General using the same criteria, they are games for different people/groups. So, 7 Wonders is light game, party game, casual game with some strategic/tactical depth. It's a game for people that want something more complicated than TtR, Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan, yet still quite easy to learn and accessible. It's not the best game of all times, but it may one of the best for its target audience...

I never said the opposite. I just say that there is no need to blindly believe (talking about possible buyers) that a game is good just because all that you said. There are negative sides of these games, and it seems that nobody stress them openly. That's what I did, and it does not make it a bad review for that. I think that it is even more valuable than all those "ooh! yes Kennerspiel des Jahres yes a lot of prizes yes it is wonderful" etc...

Reid666 wrote:

Yes, I'm fanboy, you don't have to remind me that!

Happy for you. I don't think that's bad. laugh
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realnewton wrote:
Reid666 wrote:

Excellent reply, I agree that small issues mentioned by the reviewer are small and easy to resolve.

hehehe... The point is that paying 40€ for a card game I would expect not to have the need of solving anything.



You really don't have to solve anythink. They are vary small thing's that most people can live with. At least I can, my friends too! I agree that price point is a bit to high, but only a bit. I would call it expensive rather than overpriced.


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

1.Price point - it's a bit high, but I think it's offset by amount of plays you can get from this. This is a game that you can play with many different people, casula nad non-gamers. I bet it will hit table much more often than a big and more expensive heavy-weight game, like Descent or Mage Knight. If you play a lot with casual gamers the price per game will be very low. If you wan't top play it only few times a year, then it's bad investment.

Good point but replayability is not excuse for overpricing. The price of a game should be set by the cost of printing, components, delivery and general idea. The point is that there are games around that you pay for marketing and general idea (and more for the first one). Something moves in my guts when I think that two 7W almost allows me to buy a Twilight Imperium. Many games scale brutally well in number of players and game difficulty at a less price. So, why is 7W so pricy? In my opinion, marketing + hype.



As you said, general idea is part of the price. But this general idea is usually followed by months of design and playtesting. The replayability is consequence of good design and development, so I think it's worth a few bucks.

And it also disturbs me a bit that I paid for 7 Wonders, both expansion and Catan promo almost the same I would have to pay for Runewars with tons of figs, boards, tokens and cards. But after that I realize that I've already played 150+ games of 7W. If I bought Runewars it would propably be played only few times, if ever


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

2.Box size - that's just marketing. And many people will apreciate that you can repack game into into small compact box if you wish.

That's exactly what I was saying. After overpaying a game I still have to work in order to make it fit in my shelves...? No way! arrrh



Different point of view:
After 2 expansions released, 2 promo wonders and 2 more expansions announced, I appreciate that I can store everything in base box (1st ed with paper insert, in case of new box you have to throw insert away to fit everything)


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

3.Table space - many other games take a lot of table space, especially ones with a lot of elements. I take it as characteristic of some games. With some effort you can manage to squeize most cards under the wonder board. We often play 4p on a 60x60cm coffe table.

Cool man! I know many industries that will pay for such optimization abilities. In any case, I don't care about table consuming games. That's something I like, but if it is not at a cost of disorder increasing. Somehow that's the feeling I always had when playing: F**k! This is a mess!



Yes, it can be messy, but after I give my friend some tips how to organize their cards, they get better and better at this, but for some it's still a challenge. It depends on people, but generally: the more you play the game, the better you know the game, then it's easier to keep everything in order.


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

4.2-player variant - well, it works well. Thats all I can say, it's harder, more complicated, more confusing, more cuthroat and yea it's a bit awkward. It just makes game more heavy, some people don't like it, some love it.

Robot players work better for some games, and worse for others. In 7W I didn't like it a lot. For me it is a game for 3+ players, range in which it works really well. Somehow, the feeling I had is that it was a patch for putting a 2 in the number of players and sell more.



Propably it was a patch, as it isn't mentioned on my box (1st). But it doesn't change that after you get used to it, it works pretty well. At the beginning it gave made some headache because I was overwhelmed with options and decisions. After few plays it shows it's advantages: more options, more control and a bit more strategy. You pull of some very nasty tricks on your opponent if you manipulate Free City very well.


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

And think that review that focused only on negatives points (and especially very minor ones) is a bad review. That's all.

Of course it is focused only in the negative points. That was the main purpose! To expose them! That's the thing that non-Spanish speakers cannot get from the review. It is explained at the very beginning that there are many reviews about 7W explaining mainly the good points. My idea was doing exactly the opposite. So the focus IS the negative points. Of course! So I think it is a "wonder"ful review!



I trust that this was your intention, but I think that reception is quite different. For me your review boils down to:

7 Wonders is overated, overhyped and overpriced card game with complete lack of content, sold in oversized box. It's not a terrible game but there are many better and cheaper games that have more to offer. At it's current prize point it's jus a big moneygrab.

and you added some side rant about some extremely minor downsides of the game to fill in the space.

I know you said this wasn't your intention, but that's how it reads.

Maybe few more sentences describing positive aspects of game and omission of some really forced negatives ( like being only a card game makes it
a worse game overall), would make it a better and less biased review.


Quote:

Reid666 wrote:

And about all this praise and awards and great reviews and fanboys and stuff like that. You have to realize that every game has it's target audience. And rewards should reflect how good the game is for its audience. You can't easily compare Ticket to Ride, Chess, Magic the Gathering, Mage Knight and Panzer General using the same criteria, they are games for different people/groups. So, 7 Wonders is light game, party game, casual game with some strategic/tactical depth. It's a game for people that want something more complicated than TtR, Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan, yet still quite easy to learn and accessible. It's not the best game of all times, but it may one of the best for its target audience...

I never said the opposite. I just say that there is no need to blindly believe (talking about possible buyers) that a game is good just because all that you said. There are negative sides of these games, and it seems that nobody stress them openly. That's what I did, and it does not make it a bad review for that. I think that it is even more valuable than all those "ooh! yes Kennerspiel des Jahres yes a lot of prizes yes it is wonderful" etc...



Maybe the reason why nobody or very few people stress them is that most of the negative sides you mentioned are very minor or nonexistant for majority of target audience?

Some of them aren't aven negetive sides, they are characteristics:

1. Being a card game only? Magic:The Gathering is only a card game and is enjoyed by thousands (if not milions) of people all over the world.

2. Not so original? It combines some elements know from other games in a novel way. It's an interesting combination of mechanisms. I would say that as a whole it is quite original when compared to other popular card games. You may think different ... But many great and most popular games are just a recombination and refinement of past ideas.

Some have upsides and downsides:

3. Box size - it's bad when you have only base game, with expansions it starts to be an upside

Some are connected with learning curve and knowledge of game:

5&6. Messy and unclear - before you get to know the game it's like that. You have to know game for everything to be clear. I think it's valid for many board and card games in general. Maybe exept the simplest. With 7W it takes only few plays to understand everything.

And you have 2 more or less valid points:

4. 2 player variant - it has many downsides and can be confusing for new players. It also has some upsides. It wasn't called expert in the rules without a reason...

7. Expensiveness - yes, a bit. But it depends on people, what they value: amount of content, amount of fun, quality of gameplay. At the same price you can buy a game with a lot of content and almost unplayable or very mediocre at best.


Last thing:

Quote:

Ciertamente. Pero creo que hay muchos otros juegos también accesibles, (muchos de ellos de cartas), con diversas formas de ganar, muy escalables tanto en jugadores como en profundidad estratégica, que son más baratos, ocupan menos y se les ha prestado menos atención que a 7W.


Could you point me to some examples?
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Reid666 wrote:
markgravitygood wrote:

I've STILL yet to receive a playable Age III deck. I stopped trying after the third try.


From other thread we know thay your first replacement deck had some cards glued together, but what was wrong with second and third? Could you share more about your experience?


Three Strikes and you are out:

Strike 1: original contents of game unplayable because of the card backs in the Age III deck were wildly inconsistent. The peeps Iplay with notice stuff like that.

Strike 2: First replacement had similar problem. Unplayable. It's like they just tossed the same deck back at me and said "F-you, deal with it."

Strike 3: Second replacement deck arrives and I have to literally use a frigging RAZOR BLADE to separate about 12 of the cards from each other, destroying them in the process, because the ink seemed to have been wet when they packaged them up.

What a disaster this company is. I'm sure there is an ok game in there *somewhere* but I'm not bothering to find out any longer.
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