David Etherton
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The rules don't seem to address this specifically... in the Standard game, you're supposed to shuffle the three market tiles before putting it down. Do you allow anybody to look at their order after this point?

As soon as the first sale happens, the exact order will be common knowledge due to a process of elimination, but not being allowed to look at all introduces an annoying hidden trackable information element.

The rules explicitly say you're allowed to look at the goods tiles and racial techs (particularly since somebody may have dumped off a nonstandard one on a previous turn) but it's not clear if the market tiles are included in that.

If I was teaching the game, I'd let people look at the market order at any time, even when the culture was first discovered, so I won't have to remember which cultures have already been sold to yet or not.

Thanks,

-Dave
 
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Justen Brown
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When it comes to any board game I have a rule of thumb: if it's face up, it's public knowledge unless said otherwise.
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Scott M.
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I see no problem with looking at them, it says turn the stack face up. Its public knowledge +1
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Carlos Alves
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Rules at Page 12 wrote:
Goods and Technology Tokens
When buying goods and racial technologies from
a culture, players are not restricted to those tokens
found on the top of their respective stacks, and may
purchase any of the goods and technology tokens
in that system (players can look at the back of any
goods or technology token at any time).


only refers to goods and racial technologies, not the market token.
Maybe we can look only at the top of revealed market token.

Or maybe you can house rule it.

In my opinion, it should have 1 or 2 more additional market tokens for each culture to prevent memorization. When the market token is shifted, you reveal the next and shuffle the rest.

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Justen Brown
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BGFreakDag2PT wrote:
Rules at Page 12 wrote:
Goods and Technology Tokens
When buying goods and racial technologies from
a culture, players are not restricted to those tokens
found on the top of their respective stacks, and may
purchase any of the goods and technology tokens
in that system (players can look at the back of any
goods or technology token at any time).


only refers to goods and racial technologies, not the market token.
Maybe we can look only at the top of revealed market token.

Or maybe you can house rule it.

In my opinion, it should have 1 or 2 more additional market tokens for each culture to prevent memorization. When the market token is shifted, you reveal the next and shuffle the rest.



This would slow the game down even more. It's really not a big deal at all. High and low only alter the price by 20%.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Since after one sale per culture the order becomes "known information" anyway, I don't see a problem with looking at the stack. I don't think memorizing the order of each stack was the intent (though I admit I could be wrong).
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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I've been playing that you *can't* look at the market tokens. Especially in the beginning of a light speed variant game (with cultures already uncovered, but no transactions yet), this introduces a bit of beard-stroking market speculation that I find interesting.
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Chris J Davis
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
I've been playing that you *can't* look at the market tokens. Especially in the beginning of a light speed variant game (with cultures already uncovered, but no transactions yet), this introduces a bit of beard-stroking market speculation that I find interesting.


It's not really speculation though, is it? On account of the fact that it's completely random.
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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bleached_lizard wrote:

It's not really speculation though, is it? On account of the fact that it's completely random.


Actually, I would say that is a prime example of investment speculation: hope of high gain, risk of low gain when the market changes (since you can't ever really "lose" money by selling a good).

There is a bit more to the strategy here than I thought at first, however. For example, if you are hauling 1 basic good and 2 luxury goods that can all be offloaded at planet X, it is not a problem if the market is down when you arrive: you simply sell your basic good (which maxes out your allowance of sell actions for the turn), cycle the market, and then sell your luxury goods at much improved prices. Conversely, if you are hauling 2+ premium/luxury goods, and looking to sell them to a culture with a "green" market, you had better have a merchant spaceport to sell all of your goods in one fell swoop, or who knows what condition the market will be in? Obviously, this isn't going to tweak your strategy *that* much, but I do find it to be an added layer of strategy (AP for some).
 
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Chris J Davis
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Good points, but it's still an exact 50/50 chance, with nothing to base the prediction on. It would be nice if there were some way to predict how the market would change after a transaction, with more than just the three options to choose from (i.e, adding a "very high" and "very low" market), but that would probably be adding way too much extra complication.
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Good points, but it's still an exact 50/50 chance, with nothing to base the prediction on.

Yeah, predictions here would be baseless. But hey, this game uses dice to move, so I don't think it's horrible to have this little randomizing element.

This brings me to a question though: does the market cycle with every transaction, or only with *sell* transactions. I have been playing that it cycles every turn that you do business, even if you didn't sell anything to that culture, but I think that I may be wrong.
 
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Scott Lewis
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
This brings me to a question though: does the market cycle with every transaction, or only with *sell* transactions. I have been playing that it cycles every turn that you do business, even if you didn't sell anything to that culture, but I think that I may be wrong.

The rules say that you only rotate the market when you perform at least one sell action (page 15), and happens after all sell actions are performed. Thus, if you land on a culture and only buy things, it will not shift.
 
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
Good points, but it's still an exact 50/50 chance, with nothing to base the prediction on.

Yeah, predictions here would be baseless. But hey, this game uses dice to move, so I don't think it's horrible to have this little randomizing element.

This brings me to a question though: does the market cycle with every transaction, or only with *sell* transactions. I have been playing that it cycles every turn that you do business, even if you didn't sell anything to that culture, but I think that I may be wrong.


It's only when you sell.
 
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Chris J Davis
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Speaking of which, it would also be quite nice if the state of the market also slightly altered the *buying* price of the goods produced there. But it doesn't, so it's not worth thinking about.

Or is it?
 
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Scott Lewis
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Speaking of which, it would also be quite nice if the state of the market also slightly altered the *buying* price of the goods produced there. But it doesn't, so it's not worth thinking about.

Or is it?

There's no reason it couldn't, although they don't necessarily need to be linked to the same market. IE, if a culture is in a "low" market, it could just mean they aren't really in need of what they are buying, but if they have a high market, they are really anxious for the shipment.

Neither necessarily correlates to the stockpile of goods they are trying to sell. However, that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a separate market for that.
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Carlos Alves
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Since we are talking about the market.

I was thinking about making a house rule regarding the following standard rules state:

Goods and Technology Tokens
When buying goods and racial technologies from
a culture, players are not restricted to those tokens
found on the top of their respective stacks, and may
purchase any of the goods and technology tokens
in that system (players can look at the back of any
goods or technology token at any time).


I would suggest to not looking at the back of goods during the game. The back of goods will only be revealed when you sell it. That way may reduce the dowtime of transaction phase. What do you think? I'm really thinking to make it when i receive the game. (This house rule can be used on Classic and Standard).

Thematically, after buying goods, you don't know the selling prices of others market until you reach there.
 
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Scott Lewis
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That would only work for the first game or two. It wouldn't be long before the players just know what the standard price of the goods are (or a close enough estimate), that it would just start rewarding those who've played before or have better memories.
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Carlos Alves
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Yes, i agree with you. But if you have a lots of game and your group does a rotation on games each weekend, that may be so easy to memorize all prices of goods. You only will be able to know the prices range between the low, normal, high.
 
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