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Here I Stand» Forums » Rules

Subject: Committing debaters without using their bonus rss

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Kristian Thy
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Two questions related to the publishing of treaties:

1) Is it allowed to commit debaters without using their bonus? (E.g. committing Faber without trying to convert any Electorate, or Wishart when all of Scotland is Protestant.)

2) Is it allowed to commit a Protestant debater from another language zone than the one targeted? (E.g. CalvinCop when publishing in English.)

I can't find anything prohibiting this in the rules, so I guess the answer is "yes" on both counts.
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Jayson Smith
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I think these are the relevant passages to my English question (2 above):

18.1:
Quote:
If Cranmer is on the map, the English power may also
undertake the Publish Treatise action, although the cost for the
action is 3 CP. Treatises published by the English always target
the English language zone.

18.3:
Quote:
Publishing a treatise (zone is chosen by power taking action.
2 attempts normally). If Carlstadt’s debater bonus is
used, make 3 attempts which all must be in German zone. If
Calvin’s debater bonus is used, make 3 attempts which all
must be in French zone.


It also seems like the target language zone is picked before the target spaces, so that 18.3 sections seems to suggest that Protestant cannot use Calvin for an English Publish Treatise action. But the other +1 die French reformers seem fair game?

Also, target zone vs target spaces, you can always go outside the target zone and risk losing ties -- even England I presume? I have no idea why the English player would do so, other than a really convoluted diplomatic agreement.
 
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Kristian Thy
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18.3 just restricts the target spaces. But we have another ruling from Ed saying that if you use Carlstadt or Calvin, you have to use all three attempts, so I've replaced him in the example above.

Stoffel wrote:
Also, target zone vs target spaces, you can always go outside the target zone and risk losing ties -- even England I presume? I have no idea why the English player would do so, other than a really convoluted diplomatic agreement.


Calais is worth ½ a VP, but they speak Français
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Ed Beach
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Answers:

1) No. The debater has to have a possible meaningful effect to be committed.

2) Yes. You frequently see debaters from western Germany (Bucer) and Switzerland (Calvin, Farel, Zwingli, Oeky) committed when the attempts have originated in another zone.
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Kristian Thy
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Thanks for ruling on this, Ed. I think it actually needs to be errata'd, since there is no mention of this in the rules that I can find. Greg, are you listening?
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Kristian Thy
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Ed Beach wrote:
The debater has to have a possible meaningful effect to be committed.


Follow-up question: I think I know what you mean by "possible meaningful effect", but can you confirm that this is correct: it is thus only allowed to commit e.g. Wishart if there are Catholic spaces in Scotland eligible for conversion, but it is optional to actually use the bonus, i.e. you could try to convert Bristol and Plymouth instead? This matters for the case where England decides to Publish Treatise - if the bonus must be used if possible, the Protestant player can manipulate the English attempts.

Even worse example: if the bonus must be used, then committing Cop for an English treatise would force Henry to try to convert France instead (if, for instance, England is on the verge of winning, it would make sense for the Protestant to thwart the conversions).
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