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Subject: PBF SoB game potential House rules discussion rss

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Corbon Loughnan
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This thread just to cover house rule discussions before we start (and maybe after, if we run into more situations).
General discussion welcome I guess.

Scenario: (Sea of Blood campaign)
Expansions: JITD+WOD+AOD+TOI+SOB
[url]Thread link[/url]

Moderator: Morthai?
Overlord: Ackbar117
Player 1: Corbon
Player 2: Pierzasty
Player 3: Titeman
Player 4: Soylent Green
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Issues to be discussed/addressed (I will update this post as others post more issues or as answers are agreed):

1. Feats PBF
- seems to be general agreement
2. Tentacles
- few opinions, mostly agreeing, some still under discussion
3. Divine Favour
- mostly in favour using the revised version (always a +)
4. Promo Heroes
- mixed, but more in favour of having the option than not. Can always simply not choose them
5. Ship Upgrades
- still under discussion
6. City Stats
- seems to be no major opinions, OL mildly disagrees
7. Wild Vortex (location)
- not much comment, but almost certain to be universal
8. Dungeon Level setup (glyph chaining)
- seems to be general agreement
9. Treasure Sites
- seems to be general agreement (3 pieces required, earn the 4th and the reward together)
10. RtL Dungeon levels
- seems to be agreement to add in.
- Merrimac's HR for RtL Boss bonus (x1/2 round up in copper, same in silver, x3/2 ru in gold) has not been discussed by anyone.

 
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Corbon Loughnan
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My starting points (except tentacles, its own large post)

1. Feats
I think the stripped down feat decks work well, but Andrew_zz and I have found a minor problem and I think we should take up his suggested fix (which we have not yet in our game but are keeping it in mind as a possible change.
The problem: the smaller decks can be ‘farmed’ so that you see the same powerful cards used much more often. This is most striking with the combat deck which is down to 10 cards and a couple of heroes accumulating combat feats could see, say, Sweeping Blow (only one copy) cycle very rapidly.
Solution: Simply double the decks. Easy. Instead of 10/12/12 they become 20/24/24.


3. Divine Favour
I prefer without it, but can live with the modified (always a +) version in the FAQ.

4. Promo heroes
I prefer without. Given that Tobin is banned from SoB officially, I can live with.

5. Ship Upgrade payment

I still highly disagree with the FAQ here. Ship upgrades are not related in any way to Tamalir upgrades and are undertaken by an individual hero spending an individual weeks Train action. Other heroes should not pay XP for this.
I fully expect to get told to shut up on this one. :)

6. City Stats
I think there should be some adjustments for balance. Markets especially, and to some extent temples and alchemists are quite critical and I don't believe FFG understand just how bad having a number less than 2 in any of these is.
Gafford: Temple 2
Garnott: Market 2 or no shortages
Hardell: Add at least one more trait
Trelton: Special must be un-crushing-blow-able. This one is critical IMO. Market + Alchemist combo of at least 2 (1 each?)

7. Wild Vortex location

This is the one with an auto-die chance of >1/2 for the heroes from rocks + start location + wind/current in the first 2 turns. IMO current direction should be changed to S, which solves the problem entirely I believe.

8. Dungeon Level setup

Revert to RtL rules with all heroes starting next to glyph. Otherwise heroes can glyph-chain on turn 1 which is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

9. Treasure sites
Should be normal dungeons with all normal dungeon rules (eg +1CT for exploring, can be Reinforced etc). Treasure chest reward given in place of gaining a treasure map piece when completing the 3rd level.
Note: Only need 3 pieces to enter now - a fourth piece is earned in this dungeon and then the reward is immediately given.


10. RtL Dungeon levels.

In or out? My vote for in, but I don’t really care.
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I have no experience with SoB at this point, but after other people chime in I'll cast my votes...
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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2. Tentacles
The tentacle fix rule in the FAQ only addressed one problem and failed to address even that. If a controlling figure moves more than (tentacles speed + 3) spaces away from a tentacle it cannot follow the rule.
Quote:
6. The Kraken and Tentacles
Background:

The rules for the Kraken, and attendant tentacles are unclear to many people and have significant issues that need addressing.

First, the nature of the Tentacles themselves is sometimes confusing. Are tentacles part of the Kraken? Do they get the special abilities of the Kraken?
Does each Tentacle have “Tentacle 5” ability? Does it have Swim? While the answers to these questions might be fairly obvious to most people, they are likely to be inherently inconsistent (I assume the answers to the last 2 are no, and yes respectively!) And these answers being obvious do not help us with Ironskin and Regen5, which are not entirely obvious.
Questions have also been asked about whether the tentacles also might have the Pierce10/Poison/Bleed attack (!).
A clear definition of the Kraken’s Tentacles is probably the easiest way to clarify these questions.
There is an answer in the FAQ already, stating that Tentacles do not get the owners' abilities, but with the lack of Swim for Tentacles making them even slower, that answer is simply unworkable, and obviously not thought through properly.
Second, the Kraken and Tentacles move separately, and often at considerably different speeds (the Kraken, being a Lt, may Run), yet they are ‘naturally joined’ (one assumes!) and come with a rule stating the tentacles may not move further away from the Kraken than 3 spaces. However what happens if the Kraken moves further from the tentacles than 3 spaces? Is it prohibited? Are the tentacles restricted in their movement afterward? If so, how?
These issues can be cleared up either with a comprehensive set of options but they could also be resolved with a ‘new’ set of rules for the Kraken – it isn’t as if the existing set of rules tells us very much!
Third, are tentacles figures? Do they contribute to Swarm, or Brawler? Do they block LOS or block movement? Can another figure end in the same space as a tentacle? Can another tentacle end in the same space as a tentacle?
Fourth, there are problems with heroes being able to effectively 'hide' on the revenge, almost unable to be reached by the Kraken/Void as the main monster is on one side of the vessel and the tentacles cannot reach to the other side (especially if cannons block tentacle movement) while still staying within 3 spaces. The Kraken/Void needs to be able to reach heroes with tentacles or they cannot win encounters ever. Ideally, they could move 'under' the Revenge, so be able to move from one side to the other in a single turn, giving the tentacles the necessary flexibility to reach the heroes. Note that heroes could maneouver the Revenge so that once side edge is against the map edge which prevents the Kraken/Void from getting to the other side of the vessel when the heroes are 'hiding'.
A hero with Unstoppable (Ox tattoo) is effectively immune to both Kraken and Void since they rely virtually entirely on grappling heroes and dragging them to the bite attack or centre of whirlpool.
Questions:
Q1. What abilities do tentacles have?
A1. Tentacles have the listed abilities of their owner (eg Swim etc). The Kraken's Tentacles have the abilities Swim, Ironskin and Regen 5. In addition they have all the usual functions of Tentacles. The Kraken's tentacles do not have the bite ability (Pierce10, Poison, Bleed) as that is a separate attack, not a normal listed ability.
A2. Tentacles have only the listed abilities of tentacles. They do not have abilities of the owner. This does mean that tentacles are very, very slow through the water, so use them with care!
A3. Tentacles do not have the listed abilities of their owner (eg Regen 5, Ironskin for Kraken), but they do have Swim (this is an errata).
Q2 and Q3. The Kraken and its tentacles move at different speeds and at different times. Yet the tentacles are restricted in their movement. How do these interact?
A1. The Tentacles may not move (more than 3 spaces) away from the Kraken. The Kraken may move (more than 3 spaces) away from the Tentacles. This may mean that the tentacles get left a long way behind the Kraken when it moves and may take several turns of movement before they can catch up.
A2. The Tentacles may not move (more than 3 spaces) away from the Kraken. The Kraken may not move (more than 3 spaces) away from the Tentacles.
Aa. Tentacles which are not within 3 spaces of the kraken may only move to any space that is not further away from the kraken
Ab. Tentacles which are not within 3 spaces of the kraken may only move to any space that is closer to the kraken
Combine one numbered and one lettered answer
POSSIBLE OPTIONAL NEW RULES
A3. This is a new additional rule for the Kraken/Void. All previous rules are still followed. At the end of each Kraken/Void Movement the Kraken/Void may choose to remove any or all tentacles from their current positions and reposition them in water spaces so that at least one of their spaces is adjacent to the Kraken/Void. Tentacles repositioned in this way do not affect figures they had previously ‘grappled’. After this repositioning the tentacles may be activated as normal. This represents the Kraken/Void withdrawing its tentacles temporarily.
A4. This is a new additional rule for the Kraken/Void. All previous rules are still followed. The Kraken/Void may sacrifice it’s entire activation, and the activation of each of its tentacles, to do the following move. The Kraken/Void may move to any water (deep) space within 8 spaces (without entering any intervening space) and reposition each of its remaining tentacles so that at least one of their spaces is adjacent to it. The tentacles will not then activate as their activation is also sacrificed to do this move. This represents the Kraken/Void temporarily diving deeper underwater.
A5. Some variant of either of the above. For example, maybe the tentacles choose this individually *as* their own activation instead of collectively, after the Kraken's activation in A4. Maybe the tentacles still get to activate after the Kraken/Void moves and repositions them in A4?
A6. This is an additional new rule for the Kraken/Void. All previous rules are still followed. For the purposes of counting distance between tentacles and the Kraken/Void, all spaces on the Revenge count as one space distance from any water space adjacent to the Revenge. Effectively the Kraken/Void counts the entire Revenge as one giant space, but only for the purposes of checking distance between Kraken/Void and tentacles.
A7. This is a new additional rule for the Kraken/Void. All previous rules are still followed. Tentacles that are on Revenge spaces and are not grappling a hero may damage the Revenge. If not grappling a hero they may roll one black/silver/gold power dice (at copper/silver/gold campaign level) and each Yrolled causes 1 damage to the Revenge.

Alternate option – add a Red dice to the attack as well?
Q4. Are tentacles figures? How do they interact with other figures and LOS?
A1. Tentacles are figures, so they affect Brawler, Swarm and similar abilities. Unlike normal figures, other figures may move through tentacles and tentacles may move through other figures. Tentacles do/do not (choose one) affect Line of Sight.
A2. Tentacles are not figures. Tentacles may/may not (choose one) move through or be moved through by other figures. Tentacles do/do not (choose one) affect Line of Sight. Tentacles may still be attacked, even though they are not figures.

Note: If tentacles are not figures then we will also need to address whether flying figures can move through them (and maybe spawning for the future if they still block LOS).
(See also Question 44)
Q5. How does Unstoppable interact with tentacles?
A1. A hero with unstoppable is immune to grapple, so tentacles cannot 'grapple' this hero and therefore are unable to affect him. Yes, this means that the Kraken and Void cannot defeat this hero party.
A2. Tentacles don't actually have the Grapple ability, they are just able to affect heroes as though they did have grapple. Since they don't have grapple, there is nothing to be immune to. So a tentacle may still constrict or move a figure with Unstoppable even though he is immune to grapple.
A3. Oops! Heroes with Unstoppable (Ox tattoo) are still able to be grappled by Tentacles.


My preferences:
Q1 – A1 (followed by A3)
Q2/3 – A3+A6+A7
Q4 - Tentacles are figures by new FAQ rule (they can move and have wounds). So new answer, basically A1 but slightly clearer. "A1. Tentacles are figures, so they affect Brawler, Swarm and similar abilities. Unlike normal figures, other figures may move through tentacles (remembering grapple effect) and tentacles may move through other figures, and any figure may end in the same space as a tentacle. Tentacles do affect Line of Sight."
Q5 - A2
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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corbon wrote:
My starting points (except tentacles, its own large post)

1. Feats
I think the stripped down feat decks work well, but Andrew_zz and I have found a minor problem and I think we should take up his suggested fix (which we have not yet in our game but are keeping it in mind as a possible change.
The problem: the smaller decks can be ‘farmed’ so that you see the same powerful cards used much more often. This is most striking with the combat deck which is down to 10 cards and a couple of heroes accumulating combat feats could see, say, Sweeping Blow (only one copy) cycle very rapidly.
Solution: Simply double the decks. Easy. Instead of 10/12/12 they become 20/24/24.


3. Divine Favour
I prefer without it, but can live with the modified (always a +) version in the FAQ.

4. Promo heroes
I prefer without. Given that Tobin is banned from SoB officially, I can live with.

5. Ship Upgrade payment

I still highly disagree with the FAQ here. Ship upgrades are not related in any way to Tamalir upgrades and are undertaken by an individual hero spending an individual weeks Train action. Other heroes should not pay XP for this.
I fully expect to get told to shut up on this one.

6. City Stats
I think there should be some adjustments for balance. Markets especially, and to some extent temples and alchemists are quite critical and I don't believe FFG understand just how bad having a number less than 2 in any of these is.
Gafford: Temple 2
Garnott: Market 2 or no shortages
Hardell: Add at least one more trait
Trelton: Special must be un-crushing-blow-able. This one is critical IMO. Market + Alchemist combo of at least 2 (1 each?)

7. Wild Vortex location

This is the one with an auto-die chance of >1/2 for the heroes from rocks + start location + wind/current in the first 2 turns. IMO current direction should be changed to S, which solves the problem entirely I believe.

8. Dungeon Level setup

Revert to RtL rules with all heroes starting next to glyph. Otherwise heroes can glyph-chain on turn 1 which is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

9. Treasure sites
Should be normal dungeons with all normal dungeon rules (eg +1CT for exploring, can be Reinforced etc). Treasure chest reward given in place of gaining a treasure map piece when completing the 3rd level.

10. RtL Dungeon levels.

In or out? My vote for in, but I don’t really care.


1. Stripped down feat deck doubled sounds good
3. Devine Favor is no longer nessessary if you fix the core stuff (like lieutenant moves back to keep after fleeing, etc.)
4. sounds good
5. Same as Talimar upgrades the crew should all pay the exp.
6. I have to check the map for this
7. Isn't there even a location where you start on a rubbletoken?
8. Why to change something that worked in RTL? Right - there is no reason!
9. Sounds like similar to rumors - but gathering 4 mappieces and then beating the whole dungeon as requirement for the loot sounds harsch.
10. RTL including for more varity.

2. Never thought that tentacles are not intuitivable understandable..?
they are part of the lieutenant that recieve all the same stuff including announcing actions (like attack, attack) but not the bite attack since it is the maws ability. This resolve nearly all issues. Move them as 1 entity with different locations and the possibility to move them in different directions (within limited space) - so if you move the maw, move the tentacles with them.(still each entity may and tentacles declare thier prefered action - the outcome of the actions must be a legal variant in case of the limited reach rule) The only exeption it seem be that the tentacles can be moved through and move through other figures which is also quite intuitive.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Morthai wrote:

5. Same as Talimar upgrades the crew should all pay the exp.


Can you explain why?
Its not what the rules say.
It does not fit any existing rules mechanism (in SoB, but also not in RtL - its a different mechanism to Tamalir upgrades).
Its not conducive to balance.
IMO its just a stupid and ignorant answer (in the FAQ) to an even more stupid and ignorant question.
... waits to get told to shut up.

Morthai wrote:
7. Isn't there even a location where you start on a rubbletoken?

Fixed I believe.

Morthai wrote:
9. Sounds like similar to rumors - but gathering 4 mappieces and then beating the whole dungeon as requirement for the loot sounds harsch.


d-uh. Its supposed to be only gather three, then get the 4th and reward at the location.
Point was that these pretty much generally got missed out because there's simply not enough time or the heroes to waste weeks doing them given the map pressure the OL should be putting on.

Morthai wrote:
2. Never thought that tentacles are not intuitivable understandable..?
they are part of the lieutenant that recieve all the same stuff including announcing actions (like attack, attack) but not the bite attack since it is the maws ability. This resolve nearly all issues.


SoB pg42
Each tentacle has attributes according to the chart below and moves and attacks independently of the controlling figure. Tentacles activate after the controlling figure each round.

If they get the same stuff, do they all have Swim then? (of course!)
What about Ironskin? (well, maybe, I guess...)
Regen5? (well, maybe, I guess...)
Tentacle5? (what?!)

The answer should be the same for all 4 of those, at least for the Kraken...
Yet while they must have Swim, or they fail utterly, they surely don't have Tentacle 5 themselves...
Ironskin and Regen5 are unclear, and different people intuitively guess different ways.

Morthai wrote:
Move them as 1 entity with different locations and the possibility to move them in different directions (within limited space) - so if you move the maw, move the tentacles with them.(still each entity may and tentacles declare thier prefered action - the outcome of the actions must be a legal variant in case of the limited reach rule) The only exeption it seem be that the tentacles can be moved through and move through other figures which is also quite intuitive.


Thats complicated enough I'm not sure I even understand it as you write it.
Are you saying that if the 'body' moves N-N-N-N-N-N-N-NE in a run action, for example, each tentacle also moves N-N-N-N-N-N-N-NE simultaneously? And/Or some other 8 moves that keep within 3 spaces of the body after each nth move? So you ar simultaneously tracking 6 moving parts?
And then each tentacle activates and does its own move and attack, now using its own speed (3/4/5)?

 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Just posting to say I'm now aware of this thread. Will post my opinion after I read it
 
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Just adding my grain of salt here.

So, Corbon, SoB isn't hopeless after all cool


corbon wrote:
My starting points (except tentacles, its own large post)

1. Feats
I think the stripped down feat decks work well, but Andrew_zz and I have found a minor problem and I think we should take up his suggested fix (which we have not yet in our game but are keeping it in mind as a possible change.
The problem: the smaller decks can be ‘farmed’ so that you see the same powerful cards used much more often. This is most striking with the combat deck which is down to 10 cards and a couple of heroes accumulating combat feats could see, say, Sweeping Blow (only one copy) cycle very rapidly.
Solution: Simply double the decks. Easy. Instead of 10/12/12 they become 20/24/24.


3. Divine Favour
I prefer without it, but can live with the modified (always a +) version in the FAQ.

4. Promo heroes
I prefer without. Given that Tobin is banned from SoB officially, I can live with.

5. Ship Upgrade payment

I still highly disagree with the FAQ here. Ship upgrades are not related in any way to Tamalir upgrades and are undertaken by an individual hero spending an individual weeks Train action. Other heroes should not pay XP for this.
I fully expect to get told to shut up on this one.

6. City Stats
I think there should be some adjustments for balance. Markets especially, and to some extent temples and alchemists are quite critical and I don't believe FFG understand just how bad having a number less than 2 in any of these is.
Gafford: Temple 2
Garnott: Market 2 or no shortages
Hardell: Add at least one more trait
Trelton: Special must be un-crushing-blow-able. This one is critical IMO. Market + Alchemist combo of at least 2 (1 each?)

7. Wild Vortex location

This is the one with an auto-die chance of >1/2 for the heroes from rocks + start location + wind/current in the first 2 turns. IMO current direction should be changed to S, which solves the problem entirely I believe.

8. Dungeon Level setup

Revert to RtL rules with all heroes starting next to glyph. Otherwise heroes can glyph-chain on turn 1 which is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

9. Treasure sites
Should be normal dungeons with all normal dungeon rules (eg +1CT for exploring, can be Reinforced etc). Treasure chest reward given in place of gaining a treasure map piece when completing the 3rd level.
Note: Only need 3 pieces to enter now - a fourth piece is earned in this dungeon and then the reward is immediately given.


10. RtL Dungeon levels.

In or out? My vote for in, but I don’t really care.


1. Double deck seems about right, but why were feats excluded at first place ? Fear that the heroes could use their knowledge of the OL's intents ? What about a honor system ?

3. Surely it isn't needed.

4. Tobin was the problem indeed. Now some promo heroes are fun to play with, why deprive yourself of that pleasure ?

5. If the FAQ says A, I prefer to play A. Else everything would be subject to unwillingness. But perhaps this is because I played against vindictive players.

6. One simple solution : start from Orris.

8 & 9 : agree

10. may I remember you of our home rule about RtL levels : make them graded too, with boss stats halved FRU at Copper and doubled (or 3/2 FRD) at Gold.

 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Merrimac wrote:

Just adding my grain of salt here.

So, Corbon, SoB isn't hopeless after all cool


Before the FAQ, yes. After the FAQ, remains to be seen, but I've aways been keen to try. I just can't get any of my tabletop fellow players on board - they've been too badly burned to be willing to go back there.

Quote:
6. One simple solution : start from Orris.


That solves only a problem not mentioned, the potential bottleneck isue which does not greatly concern me. I don't see it in any way adressing the actual issue of how badly balanced some of the other cities are.

Regarding your Boss-Stat houserules for RtL levels, if someone else wants to bring them up, fine. I'm happy with things as they stand myself, though I have no objection to discussing potential changes there.

Does anyone else have any comments?
I'm itching to start drawing heroes and skills etc , but thought we should settle this side of things first to be fair to all.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Merrimac wrote:


1. Double deck seems about right, but why were feats excluded at first place ? Fear that the heroes could use their knowledge of the OL's intents ? What about a honor system ?


Sorry, forgot this one.

Because for PBF they slow the game down a huge amount and lead to lots of 'take backs' and 'redo-s' which just mess the game up entirely. Its fine at a tabletop, where someone can just interrupt and do their thing on the spot, but in a PBF format where a significantly game-changing interruption might be 16hrs later after another 7 monsters have activated, an update happened, and another hero gone even...
 
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Here are all our other house rules that I can remember.
(one of them, pulling expelled lieutenants back to their starting point, has become standard)

- drawing : draw 11 characters, pick 4 ; draw 3 combinations avatar/plot, pick 1.
- 5 cities down aren't enough for a victory ; all 7 seaboard cities are needed.
- characters who are in town at the time a new level begins remain in town.
- the OL's keep is nonexistent for players, they don't lose 1 week to go through it ; in the same way, secret formation places are nonexistent for lieutenants.
- Hordes of the Things and Brilliant Commander may make the number of creatures of some type bypass the figuremix ; spawning may not
- Going to a buried-treasure place needs only 3 map pieces, and a complete dungeon happens there ; the treasure is earned at the same time the conditions for opening the last door are met.
- the initial buy phase is in fact a normal week's buys : the number of available potions is determined by the Alchemist #, and there will also be magic items available ; you can see them before deciding how to equip at start.
- we used to allow Treachery purchase with the initial 15 points, but won't do it anymore.
 
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BTW, we intend to allow the Poltergeist card. Why do you think it has been removed ?
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Merrimac wrote:
BTW, we intend to allow the Poltergeist card. Why do you think it has been removed ?

Its incredibly powerful (destroys antispawn, moves figures closer so they can attack when they previously couldn't, can mess with Guard options, can prevent heroes going to town by moving them away from adjacent tothe glyph etc etc etc, all for very very low cost) and broke several levels (by closing doors that required specific opening actions so they were no longer possible to reopen until the heroes killed themselves, among other things.

Merrimac wrote:

- characters who are in town at the time a new level begins remain in town.

Thats what SoB rules already say, changed from RtL, and is a terrible terrible rule. Glyph chaining is just broken. Its one I want to fix.
Why do you have this?
 
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Do you mean the fact that one can enter through the opened glyph on the first turn ? Well, the glyph usually gets opened on the second round of play, not the first. And one can always enter through it on the second round, by going to the town on the first. So, no big deal either way in our campaigns. But we thought it would be a little less illogical. The main advantage to the players being that one can keep healing without interruption.
 
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Master of the Waz
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Either rule does not interrupt healing. You can spend your first turn to go to town and heal.

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As an SoB newbie, I trust whatever decisions the group makes. I too am keen to get rolling!
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Merrimac wrote:
Do you mean the fact that one can enter through the opened glyph on the first turn ? Well, the glyph usually gets opened on the second round of play, not the first.

That might be because of your house-rule. In my games the glyph is regularly (not always, but plenty more than occasionally) opened on turn one. Being able to pour the slow heavy hitters out of the forward glyph on turn 1 is very bad design and messes the gameup badly.
There is also that level with a half-way glyph and a long way glyph. THat one is especially bad under this rule.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Titeman wrote:
As an SoB newbie, I trust whatever decisions the group makes. I too am keen to get rolling!


I think it is very important that Akbar117 comments or agrees, and has the chance to input any other house-rules for discussion, and it would be good if Soylent Green and Pierzasty also has some say.
 
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Soylent Green
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Titeman wrote:
As an SoB newbie, I trust whatever decisions the group makes. I too am keen to get rolling!


I concur to this as well.

I will read through the rules (hopefully tonight if I have time) - Thanks for pointing out the thread in a PM to me Corbon - I didn't know it was here.
 
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Brad DeRan
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corbon wrote:
My starting points (except tentacles, its own large post)

1. Feats
I think the stripped down feat decks work well, but Andrew_zz and I have found a minor problem and I think we should take up his suggested fix (which we have not yet in our game but are keeping it in mind as a possible change.
The problem: the smaller decks can be ‘farmed’ so that you see the same powerful cards used much more often. This is most striking with the combat deck which is down to 10 cards and a couple of heroes accumulating combat feats could see, say, Sweeping Blow (only one copy) cycle very rapidly.
Solution: Simply double the decks. Easy. Instead of 10/12/12 they become 20/24/24.


3. Divine Favour
I prefer without it, but can live with the modified (always a +) version in the FAQ.

4. Promo heroes
I prefer without. Given that Tobin is banned from SoB officially, I can live with.

5. Ship Upgrade payment

I still highly disagree with the FAQ here. Ship upgrades are not related in any way to Tamalir upgrades and are undertaken by an individual hero spending an individual weeks Train action. Other heroes should not pay XP for this.
I fully expect to get told to shut up on this one.

6. City Stats
I think there should be some adjustments for balance. Markets especially, and to some extent temples and alchemists are quite critical and I don't believe FFG understand just how bad having a number less than 2 in any of these is.
Gafford: Temple 2
Garnott: Market 2 or no shortages
Hardell: Add at least one more trait
Trelton: Special must be un-crushing-blow-able. This one is critical IMO. Market + Alchemist combo of at least 2 (1 each?)

7. Wild Vortex location

This is the one with an auto-die chance of >1/2 for the heroes from rocks + start location + wind/current in the first 2 turns. IMO current direction should be changed to S, which solves the problem entirely I believe.

8. Dungeon Level setup

Revert to RtL rules with all heroes starting next to glyph. Otherwise heroes can glyph-chain on turn 1 which is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

9. Treasure sites
Should be normal dungeons with all normal dungeon rules (eg +1CT for exploring, can be Reinforced etc). Treasure chest reward given in place of gaining a treasure map piece when completing the 3rd level.
Note: Only need 3 pieces to enter now - a fourth piece is earned in this dungeon and then the reward is immediately given.


10. RtL Dungeon levels.

In or out? My vote for in, but I don’t really care.


I am new to sob as well but i will take a shot at some of these at least

1. I am fine with the feats being doubled and take out the interrupts.

3. I think it is viable if one side is getting crushed

4. I like the different choices they provide.

5. This is just like Tamalir to me so all should pay.

6. city stats seem fine to me.

7. Don't know to tell

8. Sounds weird they let that slip, yeah no glyph chaining.

9. Fine with me

10. I am for in.

As such i will be fine with what everyone else decides. This will be fun since most seem to be new to SoB.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Ackbar117 wrote:


5. This is just like Tamalir to me so all should pay.


So most people say when they haven't actually looked at it.

Can you explain how it is like Tamalir upgrades?

The rules say one hero spends a week training at the Shipyard and can do ship upgrades. They do not in any way say or even suggest the idea of all the heroes paying. In fact there is no such mechanism anywhere in SoB. All upgrades of any type in SoB are paid for individually - just the cash is a collective purse.

Tamalir upgrades do not take any individual hero time and represents the hero party collectively using their growing notoriety to convince the city rulers to upgrade the city.
If the heroes end a given week’s party action in Tamalir, they can use their growing notoriety to convince its rulers to improve the city.
Its a collective choice that is done by the group in addition to the normal week action ansd takes no time or effort from any individual, but trades on the joint notoriety (reputation, experience) of the group.

By contrast, ship upgrades are undertaken by a single hero who spends his training week at the shipyard and makes his own choice about what upgrades to make. Its not a collective choice and it is done as an individual action. One hero spend his time directing at the shipyard for a week instead of training or shopping. He has to be present, using his knowledge and experience to make sure the ship is outfitted to his plans.
Train (action)
A hero who visits (casual term) a Shipyard while his party is training in a city may purchase one Ship Upgrade or cannon.

This is exactly the same as any other training. A single hero does it, makes their choice and pays the price, which is some amount of cash from the collective treasury and some amount of XP from their own store.

The only reason there is any suggestion of joint payment is that some lackwit saw that the ship upgrade cards have an XP cost symbol in the same location as Tamalir upgrade cards do in a different game (RtL) for a different thing that uses a different mechanism.

In terms of balance, it means the heroes are forced to delay their first training, in particular, and their second and third because they are severely outclassed at sea in the early Revenge (and its very slow around the map). Everyone knows that copper and early silver are the time the heroes struggle, and having all the heroes pay for Ship upgrades, which are already draining cash more than RtL, extends this period a lot.

Ackbar117 wrote:
6. city stats seem fine to me.

So you would pay 20XP (and higher price in cash) for a weapon the OL can crushing blow in the next dungeon?
And you would be happy as a hero to subsist only on treasures found in dungeons? A market of one is nearly as bad as a market of zero.

Take off the OL hat on this one, and think about how important the market and alchemist in RtL are. Then think about effectively removing them.
A market of 1 or 0 is basically doing that. It particularly crippling when the heroes are already most disadvantaged as a campaign level passes over.
I've had to try to play with half the heroes using shop weapons vs gold monsters, because the OL had a very lucky run with crushing blow in late copper and in the 5 weeks it took to get to a new city to use as base I drew 1 single weapon from the new silver deck out of 5 draws (of course it was for the best equipped hero).
 
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I haven't replied since I need to look up the original rules and changes, like what exactly was dropped from feats, to do this properly, I also have to re-learn Descent1. I'll try to get it done this evening.

also, I may do a Descent 2->1 Conversion Kit, while I'm at it

As for the SoB campaign, I'd love to play something other than the tank, for a change
 
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Brad DeRan
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if you look at the market values of all the cities against those from RTL, it is only a 1 point difference in the market so not a big deal to me if you look at it that way.
 
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