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Subject: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression with 4 players. rss

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J P
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Okay! This long time BGG-lurker will attempt to give a halfway decent review, and become an active participant in this awesome community. Why? Mainly because there were no other reviews for this new game, and I thought I would give my hand at it. And substandard so that I can make the other reviewers who come after me look good. I have no pictures, so my wall of text and slanted opinion will have to suffice.

As a foreword, I will state that I am an open-minded gamer in that I will always try anything. However, my biggest attractors to a game are a rich theme and/or innovative mechanics. I enjoy Troyes (which is all innovative mechanic) as much as I enjoy Arkham Horror (which is all thematic immersion). The games that shine are those in which the mechanic and the theme are linked closely together, such that I feel "a part of the action" (i.e. Android: Netrunner). So then, on to Keyflower!

The components

There are a lot of tiles in this game, perhaps at 12 per season. Of those tiles, only 8 are used per season. Each tile has a basic side and an upgraded side. There are also 4 starter tiles for four players, 4 boat tiles on which all colors of immigrants come, and 3 tiles for "boat-picking" order. The tiles are not the thickest ones I've seen, but they are sturdy enough that they won't warp. Buyer be warned that the glossy finish will most likely rub off if you slide them around your table!

There are a TON of meeples - 40 each in blue, red, yellow and 20 greenies. There is also allegedly a purple one, although that somehow got put in the bag by accident. It was the unicorn of the game
These meeples get stored in a drawbag.

There are also tons of wooden resource cylinders, representing wood, iron, stone, and gold - so lots of nice wooden bits. No puny baggies for these buggers!

Lastly, there are a lot of thin cardboard chits which have various skills on them, pictured as pickaxe, saw, and anvil- and perhaps one more which I'm not recalling at the moment. For the more fastidious, you will want a nail clipper. Even then, expect ragged edges after repeated plays.

The goal

Get points! The majority of your points will come from the building tiles, although some buildings also circumstantially give points for other conditions. For example, a basic inn is worth 0 points, while the upgraded version is worth 7 points. A lumberyard is worth some small amount of points, but every lumber token on the lumberyard tile is worth 2 points. You get the idea.... the one with the most points wins.

The gameplay

Phase 1 - Worker placement phase

People are currency - and you have 4 different types of currency- red, yellow, blue, and green.

On your turn, you may do one of three actions:
1) Bid for a building tile with a meeple of a given color
2) Use a building tile for the action it bestows (regardless if it is in the auction or already owned) with a meeple of a given color
3) Passand stay out for the rest of the round, with the possibility of rejoining the fray later (kudos to susanoo for the correction!)

When you bid, place any number of meeples next to the tile you want in a color of your choice. Now any player who wants to bid for that tile must not only upbid, but match the initial color. If your neighbor bid on a tile with 2 red meeples, you must bid 3 red meeples if you are to win the tile.

If you use a building tile for its effect (owned or not), you place any number of meeples there in a given color. Anyone else who wishes to use that building tile must now place a greater number of meeples (by at least +1) in that same color to use it. However, there can only be up to 6 meeples on a given building, so at best the building can only be used thrice. In addition, if the bulding is unowned and on auction, then the color of the meeples using the building must match the color of the meeples used for bidding (and vice versa).

If you place 1 red worker in a building which grants 1 iron token, then a) the next player to use it must place 2 or more red workers in that building to use it. If you put 3 workers in there originally, you are basically locking out use for anyone else - certainly advantageous at some point. Further, if this building is in the market, then it was only legal to place a red worker IF the building was either a) unbid on or b) bid on using red meeples. If the building is in the market and unbid on, then upon placing the red meeple to use the building, players may only bid on it with red meeples.


Losing bids can either be supplemented to stay in the bidding on subsequent turns, or used as a whole to bid on other tiles or use in buildings. I bid on a building with 2 blue meeples, and another player upbids with 3 meeples. On my next turn I can either add 2+ meeples to upbid them, or I can take them away to bid on other things as a 2-meeple group.

The buildings all do various things typical of worker placement games, such as giving you certain types of resources, converting resources and people to other types of resources and people, deciding player order, transporting resources, upgrading buildings, etc.

Phase 2 - resolution phase

All the tiles are claimed by the player with the winning bids. All meeples used for bidding are put into the drawbag. All meeples on the building are given to the one who won the tile. All meeples placed in buildings already owned are given over to the owner of that building. The boats which are loaded with meeple immigrants are chosen according to the bids on the player order tiles. The boats are then reseeded, and 8 new building tiles corresponding to the incoming season are brought out.

The tiles that you have bid on and claimed are then placed adjacent to your starting house, or to another tile you already own. Each building tile has roads pictured on them, and those roads must connect. Placement and planning are important, because you will need to minimize the distance (measured by tile) your resources will have to travel (from generator to site for upgrading/points) in order to do well in this game. Say I need two wood to upgrade a building. I must first somehow obtain the wood, and then transport it from whichever tile I got the wood from (or my starter tile if I obtained it from a building I don't own) to the tile that needs upgrading. If my source is too far from my destination, I might not upgrade before game's end!

Rinse and repeat for four seasons (rounds). Game is over in a little over an hour. I expect that repeated plays will lower the total time a good deal.

My thoughts

There are a lot of things that make this game a great and fun game! My biggest attractor was the overall game mechanic. Understand that there are no new innovative mechanics; there is bidding ala The Speicherstadt, worker placement, tile placement ala Glen More, pickup/deliver ala train games, and selection of meeple currencies ala Sun, Sea & Sand. If I'm choosing the wrong analogues, or am forgetting a game, my apologies. My memory is not the greatest.

Despite the lack of new mechanic, these mechanics have all been beautifully meshed together in a way that sparked a moment of awe, AND works very well thematically (with the exception of these buildings which MUST be unadulterated with other colored meeples). I felt like I was building a colony from the ground up, getting resources from my own land or another player's, hauling those resources to their needed places, and upgrading my buildings. I felt like I was competing with other colonies for certain resources, up to and including shipments of incoming people.

Another great thing is the 4-round limit. I was very stretched to think ahead to some degree, and I can see that this game is going to be one of those ones where the last utterance is going to be, "If only I had one more turn!!" Resources are scarce and proficient play (note, not excellent play)demands an economy of action. Tension is high as I sought to outbid my opponents, yet keep enough meeples to do what I wanted to do. Perhaps most of all, a shorter game will not outstay its welcome.

Replayability is also high - since each season comes with 12 (or more?) tiles, there will be a good deal of variety, not only in which buildings come up for auction, but also how the bidding will work, how the colony will take shape, and how the resources will flow.

What are the good (but not great) things about this game? Well, this is not for players who are tired, or prefer more direction in their gaming. My brain was blown wide open when we first started playing. I grant that this was my first game, but I could bid on building tiles, use resources right away, or plan for the future. Which color meeple should I use? If I have 4 red and 1 blue, should I use the blue to bid or to use a building? Should I split those 4 red into 1, 2, or 4 bids? There is an absolute freedom of movement in this game - and it can be very intimidating when playing with experienced players.

This is a gem of a game for thinking, but is also then AP prone. Our game lasted well over 90 minutes, but that was admittedly a first game for everyone. As I said before, AP should go down with more experience.

Are there any gripes about this game? As stated before, I think the tiles could benefit from being a little chunkier, and care should be made to pick the tiles up rather than slide them around. That being said, they are not so thin so as to warp or be unwieldy. The chits will definitely take a beating.

The only true gripe I have is the lack of board for the auctions. The table can get a little messy with 11 tiles, all surrounded with a lot of multiple meeples in different colors. A lack of care in meeple placement could truly mess up ownership of a given tile, and bid amounts could be hard to discern.

The other gripe, which is solely mine, is the rather unthematic color purity for bidding and use of a building. Understand that the color of a meeple neither denotes player identity, rank, or occupation. All meeples are created equal (with the exception of green, but I won't go there), are equally available to all, and used by all. The only thing the colors do is differentiate currencies. Again, though this is only my opinion based on my need for thematic integration, in a game that has a good deal of it already.

Summary of first game impressions review

This is a gem of a game that will stand up to multiple plays. While I would be careful of who I play this with and when I would play this, I look forward to playing it again! There seems to be a high amount of both strategic and tactical play, with a good amount of tension and even some meanness in this game. It is meaty and provides a good brain burning experience in a little more than an hour.

Thanks for reading my wall of text meeple

Edit in response to comments below: Yes, I realize that we only played through Autumn, as a player had to leave and the cafe had to close. That being said, I've had very few games in which the journey was excellent and the exit was horrible enough for me to dislike the game. To me (and this is my opinion here, so take it as you will) if the journey was excellent then the game is excellent, regardless of my winning/losing outcome. Keyflower was an excellent journey, again due to its beautifully meshed mechanics and combination of strategic and tactical play. So I realize I'm not qualified to say the game is the epitome of greatness, but at least I've given myself the caveat of first-play and substandard writing. whistle




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Kim Williams
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
Good review!

I'm intrigued by the 75% part - did you have to stop before Winter?

The Winter tiles are very interesting - after four plays I'm just starting to get into the deeper level of trying to work out from my opponent's actions during the first three seasons, what Winter tiles they may have, and how this could/should effect my actions.



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Paolo Ciardulli
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May all beings be happy. Whatever beings there may be, whether they are weak or strong, without exception, long, big, medium, short or small, whether visible or invisible, those living near or far, those born or to-be-born, may all beings be happy!
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
Nice review! Thank you.
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Daniel Indru
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
Wow... a review after three quarters of a game. What's next, reviews after reading the rules or seeing the artwork on the box?

This game is not a family game and definitely is not something that you can introduce to casual gamers or have an easy time explaining the rules. A review should come after at least 5-6 plays in different groups and different number of players.

What if the end of the game is crappy? What if scoring ruins the whole experience? What if the last round is a miserable experience?
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Salim Eryigit
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
By the way, you are not out of the round if you pass. You can pass for the current -let's say- tour, and take an action/bid during the next one unless all players have passed. It is at the bottom of page#3 of rulebook.

Thanks for the review.
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Don D.
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
Nice review. I'm curious though...I was pouring through your rankings to try and get a feel for what type of games you like for context and you rate Keyflower a 7.5, which is just about your average rating. Do you think the game is on par with the average and not any better or worse? Also, I didn't see a lot of heavy euros rated so there wasn't a good enough sample size for me to draw any conclusions on that. How heavy would you compare this to standard steam (a game you also rated 7.5)? Thanks for the info and for the good read!
 
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tom moughan
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ahh....I love the smell of a stack of sketchily placed animals in the morning!
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
djdano wrote:
Wow... a review after three quarters of a game. What's next, reviews after reading the rules or seeing the artwork on the box?


Wait a minute...I have already read these on BGG! whistle

Truth aside --

I wanted to say that the bidding is actually present in Richard's previous game, Key Harvest and was one of the elements I really liked about that game and continue to.

What I can't wait to see play out for myself: Careful management of remembering what player had meeples played on the tile during auction and what color/how many went to whom! Very heady! Can't wait for my preorder to land of this.

 
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Don D.
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
djdano wrote:
Wow... a review after three quarters of a game. What's next, reviews after reading the rules..


This is actually already done and it can be informative. I am glad to see this comment doesn't just show up in negative reviews, but I don't care to see it at all. Frankly, I'd appreciate it if you didn't stem the flow of information to this website by mocking a poster who has brought us information and in doing so discourage both him and other potential posters from posting again. He didn't hide the fact that he only played a short period of time and was honest with that information. I am perfectly capable of assigning a proper amount of weight to his opinion in light of that and what other games he likes/dislikes, why can't you just do the same instead of trying to quash the flow of information?
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Richard Dewsbery
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
The game only made complete sense to me *after* we'd finished our first game
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Neil Christiansen
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
Winter is coming, and winter is EVERYTHING in this game.

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Robert Ell
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
I'm glad you guys enjoyed it, I'm really excited to play it. Awesome review!

As for the 3/4 play thing -- well, the cafe closes at 10!
 
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Elle Ell
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
The whole passing out permanently was a bad call on my part. I only read the rules twice and I usually like to read rules 3 times before attempting to explain. Hence the Shadows over Camelot card game fiasco and I only read those once. Anyway Keyflower was a first play for everyone and hopefully we will all get in a full game next time. As for the tiles that come out each season, it is variable based on the number of players. We were putting out 8 of 12 for a 4 player game.
 
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Kim Williams
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
thatthing1999 wrote:
The other gripe, which is solely mine, is the rather unthematic color purity for bidding and use of a building. Understand that the color of a meeple neither denotes player identity, rank, or occupation. All meeples are created equal (with the exception of green, but I won't go there), are equally available to all, and used by all. The only thing the colors do is differentiate currencies. Again, though this is only my opinion based on my need for thematic integration, in a game that has a good deal of it already.


Your comments inspired me to write a little story to explain the colour rule which I posted here: A red keyple, a blue keyple and a yellow keyple walked into a tavern.............. Hopefully others will add their own thematic explanations.
 
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Daniel Indru
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
dond80 wrote:
Frankly, I'd appreciate it if you didn't stem the flow of information to this website by mocking a poster who has brought us information and in doing so discourage both him and other potential posters from posting again. He didn't hide the fact that he only played a short period of time and was honest with that information. I am perfectly capable of assigning a proper amount of weight to his opinion in light of that and what other games he likes/dislikes, why can't you just do the same instead of trying to quash the flow of information?


I know that beginnings are tough and I encourage everyone to write about their experiences. But when the "flow of information" one chooses to release into the community contains vague memories and conclusions based on an unfinished game, then I highly encourage the author to go back to the table and take the game for a full round. And then a second with another group. And then maybe try the 2 player version and see how it works. Maybe try to play it with the full number of players and see if that's enjoyable. And then come here and claim that it is a gem, it has high replayability or is prone to AP.

I would definitely trust these remarks if they came from users which have played hundreds of different games and can appreciate the subtleties and nuances of a complex game after one play.

Oh, and there are several things I would like to add to the "review":

- there are exactly 12 tiles per season, not around 12
- the number of tiles (season, turn order, boats) in each game depends on the number of players, they are not always 8 or 4
- there are exactly 3 types of skills, the fourth one does not exist
- not all rounds are identical, the winter is very special - but I assume the author never got the chance to play it
- not all season tiles have roads on them
- if you pass once you can come back and take more actions in the same round in future turns.

Sorry if I came a bit harsh, but I believe this community (and also the game designers) needs and deserves a little more than just vague memories or opinions after incomplete plays.
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The Dave
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
djdano wrote:

Sorry if I came a bit harsh, but I believe this community (and also the game designers) needs and deserves a little more than just vague memories or opinions after incomplete plays.


Here's the main problem. It's like you read the entire review except the self-deprecating part.

Self-deprecating part of the review wrote:
Okay! This long time BGG-lurker will attempt to give a halfway decent review, and become an active participant in this awesome community. Why? Mainly because there were no other reviews for this new game, and I thought I would give my hand at it. And substandard so that I can make the other reviewers who come after me look good. I have no pictures, so my wall of text and slanted opinion will have to suffice.


First, the bold part suggests he is trying to fill a gap in the current literature about this game. Kudos to him for doing that. Not having the game yet, I appreciate people who do have the game taking time to post about it.

Second, the highlighted part is where the OP ADMITS THE REVIEW IS PROBABLY NOT THE BEST REVIEW. So cut him some slack. Frame your criticisms more constructively, lest...

Third, the italics indicate he's taking a step out from lurker to participant. If all who try such things are met with such sledgehammers of criticism that you employ, I doubt we'll ever have fresh faces trying their hand at reviews.

Fourth, the underlined part. To the OP I say: You met your goal. Thank you for the review.
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Sebastian Bleasdale
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Re: A first-time reviewer gives a first-play (75% play) impression
djdano wrote:
Wow... a review after three quarters of a game. What's next, reviews after reading the rules or seeing the artwork on the box?

This game is not a family game and definitely is not something that you can introduce to casual gamers or have an easy time explaining the rules. A review should come after at least 5-6 plays in different groups and different number of players.


Maybe - but the fact only played 75% *was* highlighted from the start. And the advantage of BGG is that, if you decide after a few more games that you've changed your mind about aspects of the game, you can always come back to your review and amend it appropriately.

Quote:

What if the end of the game is crappy? What if scoring ruins the whole experience? What if the last round is a miserable experience?


Simply resolve only to play only the first 3/4th of the game henceforth. Autumn is the new winter, don't you know.*

* For the avoidance of doubt, this is in no ways a serious suggestion.
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J P
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The designer himself has come into the discussion! I am honored, sir. You have designed yourself a wonderful game. One of the reasons I never wrote a review of anything was a) plenty of literature already and
b) I find very few games things of beauty (cognitively speaking). So I was inspired to write, and did so due to a lack of existent literature.

To djdano, I am in agreement with you; more experience with the game will make my understanding and views of the game much better, and surely qualify my opinions more. With some amount of luck and coordination I will be able to play it again. That said, most human beings live and die by their first impressions, and once made are usually hard to overcome without some hard work. While they are neither the most-informed or useful indicators of anything, the fact is that first impressions are still used and useable- dare I say, even valid.

Out of respect and acknowledgment of your objection, I qualified that my declaration of excellence is for appreciation of the journey (the mechanisms themselves) rather than the outcome - and if the journey was fun I will not care whether I win or lose. Very rarely is the journey great and the exit terrible, although I admit that it has happened sometimes. In this game, I truly enjoyed the game mechanism.

As for Dond80's question, which is surely relevant to the discussion,
I rated Keyflower at 7.5 for two reasons:

1) Keyflower is (for me) a heavy game. Mechanically it is easy enough to understand for an experienced gamer (which I tend to think I am, although that may be a conceit) but there is a lot of depth to it! I love a good, heavy game - especially if it's shorter than 3 hours. However, according to the BGG ratings, a solid heavy game is not something I would always suggest, or even care to play. So it is better than 7, but not an 8. For example, if you catch me at 7-8pm, I'd be happy to play it! At 11pm? Not so much. By contrast, Neuroshima Hex or Hive are easy enough for me to grasp at any time of night, so they are rated higher for me. The parameters for both of these games is far more limited per turn, and easier for me to get a handle on.

2) I've only played 75% of one game. I'm not a fan of euros in general, because I tend to find them generally without theme- and theme is somewhat necessary for me. I will always play a euro, but they generally do not call to me. That said, this is a very solid thematic euro. I enjoyed it a lot! Thus, the rating may very well go up on repeated play, and if you believe the rating to be presumptuous then I would be happy to take it down till I've played a few full games.

As to how it compares to Steam: In terms of mechanical difficulty, I find them roughly the same. Both games have relatively simple mechanics which do not at all belie the incredible depth of gameplay. However, where the games diverge is in the freedom of choice. Steam seems to me fairly linear, in that one's turn sequentially builds off of the last turn and are limited to 7 basic options. While there is not necessarily a "best option" per turn in Steam, the parameters of choice are still only 1 of 7.

In a 4p game of Keyflower, within the first round there are 8 different buildings to use and/or bid on, 3 tiles to bid on incoming ships, and 3 (possibly 4) different currencies to use, these based on what you believe will give you the best chance of winning what you want. In the second round, another 8 tiles are placed out (to use or bid on), AND you still have the option of using the original 8 from the previous season.

I suppose I would compare this closest to Le Havre, in that as the game goes on, players go from having a too many options to having more too many options (yes, that was intentional). So it is indeed heavy, and that is why I have deemed it a 7.5. I've seen some posts that object to the BGG scale being useless as an objective metric mainly because the metric is entirely subjective.

Is it better than the average euro in my collection or plays? YES. Definitely yes. Due to my dis-inclination towards euro games in general, it will have to work harder than other games to be a 10. However, it does have the possibility of being so, because I really enjoy the mechanics of the game. For example, I love the euro Reef Encounter because I have yet to see a game with a similar mechanic that also draws me into the life of corals.

As an aside, the reason that you might not get a great feel for my list is that I tend to rate based on the mechanism themselves - games that have mechanics unique to my experience tend to be rated higher than not. In other words, my tastes are pretty eclectic. I hope that clarified things a little?
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J P
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Entwife, I love the attempt I agree with you that the differentiated colors are CRUCIAL to the game - and I would never argue that this should be changed. However, you now have a challenge in front of you. I look forward to seeing what is cooked up!
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tom moughan
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Received my copy today and played 4p tonight at a game night, with a friend who learned it at euroquest teaching.

I have to say the whole game came together quite nicely, decisions seem prevelant, and there were many ways to achieve victory throughout. I swore I was out of the running but somehow came in third in a game that ended up much closer than I had anticipated: 68-67-60-38

I can honestly say that before winter, I had formed a very good opinion on the gameplay. while the end game scoring and the hidden tiles are interesting and require some good long term planning, they don't change the face of the game enough to shift any opinion I had 75% through. keyflower is quite easy to grasp but the sum of its parts forms a deep experience with many avenues to explore.

Well done, Sebastian and Richard.
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Sara
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I played two two-player games so far and I can't wait to get some more plays in. I really like the game. I also love Key Market.

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tom moughan
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Played 2p last night and its intense, much like the 4p ( I was worried about that) It was interesting to play and not see over half of the tiles!
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