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Subject: Weaknesses of each of the four default corp decks...? rss

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Chris J Davis
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What are the weaknesses of each of the four corp decks? The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them. What about the other three decks?
 
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Lucas Townsend
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Re: Weaknesses of each of the three default corp decks...?
Jinteki-No economy at all
Haas-Bioroid- can be predictable and has some "weak" ICE
Weyland Consortium- Expensive to get going, basically one win condition
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Chris J Davis
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Jythier wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
What are the weaknesses of each of the three corp decks? The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them. What about the other three decks?


You should edit this to say 'four' in several places.


Oops - done!
 
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Jay Killjoy
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Re: Weaknesses of each of the three default corp decks...?
NBN out of the box biggest problem is that most of their ICE doesn't have an "End the Run" subroutine.

As for the theme for each of the corporations- I would say it's easier to see their strengths rather than their "weaknesses".

The runner factions on the other hand seem to have a built in weakness, as in the type of ICE they have issues breaking.

Criminals: Code Gates (they have no available breaker, unless you count FF)

Shapers: Sentries

Anarchs: They do not have a specific type, but rather excellent breakers on low strength ICE that have the weakness of having to be combined with other cards to work against higher strength ICE (Wyrm, Datasucker, Ice Carver).
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Trevor Schadt
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Re: Weaknesses of each of the three default corp decks...?
bleached_lizard wrote:
What are the weaknesses of each of the three corp decks? The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them. What about the other three decks?
All IMO, of course:

HB's proprietary ICE can be broken by spending subroutines. This means that the Runner can get by with fewer ICEbreakers (and fewer creds spent to power them) as long as they're willing to spend some time talking past a Bioroid.

Jinteki lays out lots of traps, which means they will be running more remote servers than the other Corps. Which means either leaving servers un-ICEd (which is usually a tip-off to the Runner, unless you have a really good poker face) or wasting clicks installing cards (and possibly creds for advancing Junebugs) that the Runner will completely ignore.

Weyland is, at the moment, the only Corp that can generate Bad Publicity, which is free money for the Runner (and thus making their servers easier to run). Weyland's ability to have Scorched Earth for free means that they have (currently) the strongest native way to use tags, but relatively few ways to distribute them (the opposite of NBN). Also, Weyland's intrinsic ability (+1c when playing a Transaction operation) is currently limited to a small number of cards, and is thus of far more limited use than, say, HB's.
 
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Jay Killjoy
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Empires wrote:
Jinteki-No economy at all


Good point, but I would include NBN for that same weakness so that would make it half the Corps with an economy issue (out of the box).
 
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Lou Lessing
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Re: Weaknesses of each of the three default corp decks...?
Do you want to know how to beat them or how to improve them?

I'll answer both, without any of the "Just don't play NBN" bullshit.

Improve:
NBN:Play something to improve your economy, and consider Scorched Earth. It's not a given, you can't really play Psychographics NBN and Scorched Earth NBN at the same time. If you give any indication of having Scorched Earth, nobody will ever leave a tag on themselves. This is great for keeping people scared of Data Raven, but bad for any of NBN's profit-from-tags effects. (Right now just psychographics.) Scorched Earth is probably stronger, but it costs 12 influence to run, so there's a good argument for playing the slightly weaker strategy and spending your influence on something less greedy, like Adonis campaigns or better ice. (NBN's a little short on things that can actually end a run.)

Weyland:Either abandon your Scorched Earth plan, ditch SE, your taggers, and Posted Bounty as soon as you can, and play more good ice (Effectively makes Weyland play like HB, except with Hostile Takeover and a worse ID) or focus more heavily on your Scorched Earth plan, play a third copy, pull in Data Ravens and maybe the NBN draw-3 to dig for them. It's easier to play Tag-n-Bag by splashing NBN into Weyland than splashing Weyland into NBN. Having Scorched Earth native, and a good economy, it's relatively cheap to splash for some good taggers.

HB:Play More Ice. Play Better Ice. Accelerated Beta Test is the best card in your deck, particularly with Biotic Labor. Splash for Archer, Tollbooth, and maybe Wall of Thorns. Heimdall will never be as good as you want him to be, as he can't protect a server on his own, so he's an easy cut. Aggressive Secretary's questionable too, a lot of the time it just misses.

Jinteki:Your early game is great, but your late-game's pretty bad. Pull in more ice that can actually end runs, Corporate Troubleshooter's great too, pumping up Chummed ice is incredible. Your economy can also use some work, and throwing Matrix Analyzer or two in front of a Junebug is brutal, as it lets you pump a Junebug all the way to a lethal 3 counters before it can be accessed. A second (and possibly third) Zaibitsu Loyalty is really important if traps are a big focus for you, having your stuff exposed sucks hard. This is a lot, and I think there are really two ways to play Jinteki. You can play really aggressive, tricky, greedy Jinteki, with no economy and you just try to bait runners into running lethal traps. It's hard to play against a good runner, but it can definitely work. Alternatively, you can play a slower, more tempo-oriented Jinteki. Remember that Junebug at three is a kill, but Junebug at 2 essentially makes the runner skip a turn. You can do a lot of getting ahead with the occasional Snare from HQ or R&D, too.

Beat:
NBN:Play Femme Fatale and Inside Job. All of NBN's frontloaded ice does nothing if it's bypassed. It's also very good to harass NBN's economy, as out of the box it's the second-weakest in the game, and it's the weakest in the game relative to the cost of what it wants to do.

Weyland:Play smart, never pass turn tagged, play Decoy or Crash Space, and play a fair game. Play good icebreakers, and a good economy, and never run into something you think is an Archer, because running into Archer is the worst. Weyland's probably the most well-rounded corp out of the box, and they don't have any real weaknesses, per se.

HB:Play Stimhack, and never let an Adonis Campaign or Melange Mining Corp live. HB's got a great economy, but they need to spend money to make money, if they can't afford to rez Adonis they have nothing. You never come out ahead paying to trash Adonis Campaign, which is what's so good about it, but the earlier you kill it the less far behind you get. (You can come out ahead with Melange Mining Corp.) Late-game, don't be afraid to take some brain damage and program trashes from Bioroids. If there's a server that you think will win you the game, and you don't have the money or icebreakers to run it, you can often just click past all the End the Run subroutines on it and take a bunch of brain damage, which doesn't matter if you win.

Jinteki:Play Lemuria Codecracker, and harass central servers. They can't be full of Junebugs, after all. Never run anything with a hand that can't take a Snare, those can be anywhere. Don't bother with Net Shield, it's terrible.

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Chris J Davis
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Yes, I'm asking to improve, not to beat.
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
What are the weaknesses of each of the four corp decks? The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them. What about the other three decks?


Weaknesses as I see them (haven't read any responses yet):

NBN: Very little Run stopping ICE.
(The 'lots of tags but hardly any way to use them' is incorrect, with cards like Closed Accounts and Psychographics available.)

Weyland: One trick pony. Heavily reliant on barriers to stop runs.

Jinteki: Believes in more of a 'barbed wire' deterrent than 'end the run'. Cash poor and uses traps, causing a further cash poor situation

HB: Bioroid ICE has a self defeating mechanism built in.

Criminal: No Codegate Breaker except for Crypsis. Aurora is a waste of ink and cardstock.

Shaper: Big Expensive Rig takes a while to get rolling.

Anarch: No meat damage prevention and very limited link. Perpetually poor making them easy to tag.
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Łukasz Łazarecki
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bleached_lizard wrote:
The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them.


I'd rather say: It has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make the runner not lose them. I'd love to see an ICE card with soubroutine like this:

Trace X: Runner can not lose tags for the reminder of this turn.

Or an Agenda with a hosted counter:

Hosted Agenda Counter: Prevent losign a tag.
 
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b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them.


I'd rather say: It has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make the runner not lose them. I'd love to see an ICE card with soubroutine like this:

Trace X: Runner can not lose tags for the reminder of this turn.

Or an Agenda with a hosted counter:

Hosted Agenda Counter: Prevent losign a tag.


Isn't that kinda what Data Ravensworth does? Inflict tags that can't be removed until the runner's next turn?
 
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Łukasz Łazarecki
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bleached_lizard wrote:
b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them.


I'd rather say: It has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make the runner not lose them. I'd love to see an ICE card with soubroutine like this:

Trace X: Runner can not lose tags for the reminder of this turn.

Or an Agenda with a hosted counter:

Hosted Agenda Counter: Prevent losign a tag.
]

Isn't that kinda what Data Ravensworth does? Inflict tags that can't be removed until the runner's next turn?


True, but only 'kinda' because nobody really runs them in the early game and everybody breaks them in the late game
 
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b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them.


I'd rather say: It has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make the runner not lose them. I'd love to see an ICE card with soubroutine like this:

Trace X: Runner can not lose tags for the reminder of this turn.

Or an Agenda with a hosted counter:

Hosted Agenda Counter: Prevent losign a tag.
]

Isn't that kinda what Data Ravensworth does? Inflict tags that can't be removed until the runner's next turn?


True, but only 'kinda' because nobody really runs them in the early game and everybody breaks them in the late game


The first job of ICE is 'keep the Runner out'.

That sounds to me like 'working as intended'.
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Piotr Jekel
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b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
b005t3r wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
The NBN one is obvious: it has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make use of them.


I'd rather say: It has a million ways to give the runner tags but hardly any ways to make the runner not lose them. I'd love to see an ICE card with soubroutine like this:

Trace X: Runner can not lose tags for the reminder of this turn.

Or an Agenda with a hosted counter:

Hosted Agenda Counter: Prevent losign a tag.
]

Isn't that kinda what Data Ravensworth does? Inflict tags that can't be removed until the runner's next turn?


True, but only 'kinda' because nobody really runs them in the early game and everybody breaks them in the late game


Hmmm... it is exactly what is good about Data Raven. Early on, it stops the runner. Later on, it forces the runner to take risks and sometimes just one slight mistake means "game over". A very good card.

 
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Łukasz Łazarecki
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hobb3 wrote:
Hmmm... it is exactly what is good about Data Raven. Early on, it stops the runner. Later on, it forces the runner to take risks and sometimes just one slight mistake means "game over". A very good card.


Half true I've never seen anybody who would let me to use Data Rave's soubroutine and do the trace. In the mid/late game everybody break it (which still is not that cheap), so you never get a chance to use it's Hosted Power Counter ability.
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b005t3r wrote:
hobb3 wrote:
Hmmm... it is exactly what is good about Data Raven. Early on, it stops the runner. Later on, it forces the runner to take risks and sometimes just one slight mistake means "game over". A very good card.


Half true I've never seen anybody who would let me to use Data Rave's soubroutine and do the trace. In the mid/late game everybody break it (which still is not that cheap), so you never get a chance to use it's Hosted Power Counter ability.


Never? Never ever?

I've had mounds of tag counters on DataRaven before - and started using Psycographics to 1-turn advance Priority Requisitions.

He's out there, the Raven knows where he is... GIVE ME THE FUNDS TO REZ OUR DEFENSES!!!

And if they're breaking the subroutine - that means the're spending credits which slows them down -- right?

Still working as intended.
 
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Brian Grell
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And ended run is still a wasted click. And if they don't end the run, they still had to take a tag from the top effect. Sure it can be removed but that still costs a click.
 
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Łukasz Łazarecki
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Malgamus wrote:
And ended run is still a wasted click. And if they don't end the run, they still had to take a tag from the top effect. Sure it can be removed but that still costs a click.


So breaking it costs additional +2 creds and a click, but still - no tags left for the corp to use
 
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Piotr Jekel
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Good to hear that DR is not loved by everyone. It makes playing as the runner much easier...
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Łukasz Łazarecki
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hobb3 wrote:
Good to hear that DR is not loved by everyone. It makes playing as the runner much easier...


It's not the case I think DR is a great piece of ICE and I use it a lot, I just miss a way of tagging runners more efficiently.
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Piotr Jekel
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I think that the balance is right at the moment and I hope that tagging will not get easier. Scorched Earth is powerful as is and with more reliable tagging it would be vastly overpowered.

 
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Patrick Jamet
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Data Raven is a good piece of defensive ice (with its limits), but it's not something to put in a Weyland deck to tag the Runner, because DR does "end the run" when the Runner wants it, and "Ah, ah, f**k you" when he wants to pass. Does DR tag the Runner by surprised ? Never. For this purpose, Hunter is way more efficient.

However DR is still good in a Weyland deck for its limited (but cheap) defensive value.
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Noah D

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Pyjam wrote:
Data Raven is a good piece of defensive ice (with its limits), but it's not something to put in a Weyland deck to tag the Runner, because DR does "end the run" when the Runner wants it, and "Ah, ah, f**k you" when he wants to pass. Does DR tag the Runner by surprised ? Never. For this purpose, Hunter is way more efficient.

However DR is still good in a Weyland deck for its limited (but cheap) defensive value.

Yes, this is exactly correct.
Data Raven is excelent in a Weyland deck because the runner will be unwilling to take a tag from Data Raven vs Weyland, and when the runner takes this stance DR becomes very expensive to them.
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Patrick Jamet
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argus88 wrote:
Pyjam wrote:
Data Raven is a good piece of defensive ice (with its limits), but it's not something to put in a Weyland deck to tag the Runner, because DR does "end the run" when the Runner wants it, and "Ah, ah, f**k you" when he wants to pass. Does DR tag the Runner by surprised ? Never. For this purpose, Hunter is way more efficient.

However DR is still good in a Weyland deck for its limited (but cheap) defensive value.

Yes, this is exactly correct.
Data Raven is excelent in a Weyland deck because the runner will be unwilling to take a tag from Data Raven vs Weyland, and when the runner takes this stance DR becomes very expensive to them.

I understand your point, but it depends if I want a defense against the runs or a chance to tag the Runner by surprise.

Here's my reasoning :

I saw some statistics showing that Weyland wins in the early game more often than in the late game. So, I want to create a lot of opportunities to tag the Runner quickly with a lots of tagging ices.

That said, with enough influence, I'll put both Data Raven and Matrix Analyzer (+ Hunter) in my deck.

The situation is completely different against NBN. NBN can advance fast, so the Runner is more willing to take risk and to pass through a Data Raven if the situation seems desperate. Psychographics works really well in this scenario because 1x Psychographics works where 2x Scorched Earth would be necessary.


FileAccess wrote:

Yar.

Also, I'll echo what someone else pointed out last week in some thread, which is that one Data Raven on a server is a nuisance but two (or even three) Data Ravens on a server is far more of an obstacle.

Yep. Although you can't advance your last agenda in this server.
 
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Noah D

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Yeah, Data Raven is a stopper early game, a taxer mid-game and a pushover at the end of the game.* It is rarely a tagger, as you say.

*The first two being contingent on having a way to punish tags, otherwise it can be a pushover all game long.
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