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Subject: World Championship Squads? rss

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Duke Of Lizards
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I just read this summary of the world championship weekend, which includes a mention of the X-Wing tourney. I'm not sure if Doug is on here, but does anyone know what his squad looked like? I'm also curious about the runner up, who was fielding rebels.
 
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Todd Warnken
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I watched the final match. The Empire had: Vader + Swarm, Howlrunner + Swarm, Obsidian Pilot, and 3 Academy Pilots. The Rebel force was not as clear. It had Wedge, 2 other X-Wings, and a Y-Wing + Ion Cannon. I'm not sure what other upgrades the Rebels had.
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Eric B.
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In a thread on FFG Hothie has a brief report: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?e...


The points I found most interesting:

(1) There were only 24 total players.

(2) "From what i could see, i think there was about half and half split between Rebels and Imperials, but the main gripe was that mostly the Rebels played Rebels and Imperials played Imperials. There wasn't nearly as much rebels vs imps as there should have been." -Hothie (from the above link).

Elsewhere on these BBG boards others had speculated that FFG might stack Rebs vs Rebs in early matches to ensure a Rebel vs. Imperial final happened, and this apparently seemed to happen (or else this was some convenient fluke of random pairing).


Both of those points seem to suggest we won't really get any useful data about general balance between Imperial and Rebels from this tournament. But, if you're building a squad for an upcoming FFG tourney, it might be a better meta-game tactic to balance your squad more aggressively against your own faction rather than the opponent faction.



I'd like to know how prevalent 7-8 TIE swarm squads were, as in the little bit of info we have it seems like all the Imperial squads were only in the 5-6 ship category (with Vader). Glad to see Howlrunner got plenty of love in the top Imp squads, though -- I think she's an underrated card.


Also, a big congrats to the winners and everyone who was able to participate. Hopefully this is just the beginning of a long and healthy international competitive scene for this game!
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Tronhammer NZ
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Here's a video recording of the finals. Really impressed by Doug's use of Howlrunner (didn't really come into play much in the final round, but i like the strategy), will definitely be practicing my formation flying and giving it a go.

http://www.justin.tv/fantasyflightgames/b/339219178
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James Motz
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Its interesting that the Rebel player ran his Y-Wing right behind the X's. It seemed like it wasn't able to get many shots in that first, critical round of shooting.

Has anyone pulled similar maneuvers but with the Y going up the middle and the X's flanking from the side?
 
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James Elhardt
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I played Nick in the semi-finals. He had r2 astromechs on his two xwings I THINK he had R2-D2 on wedge, but I can't remember at this point.

I ran Wedge with r2-d2 and swarm, 2 bare rookie pilots and a gold squad with an ion cannon.

I saw at least one 8 Tie squad, but it seemed to me like a lot of players were going with more points in less Tie Fighters. I played three imp players then rebels in the finals. I don't know how their matchups went as far as faction. There was a 3 y-wing list and a 3 y-wing and 1 x-wing list there as well.

Rebel vs Rebel is brutal and fast, but Imp vs Imp is a tough match. Doug obviously knew what he was doing, I believe he had at least 2 mirrors including the semi-finals but possibly more.

I don't know if that's what you guys were looking for, I was mostly just focused on my games and didn't get a great feel as to what else was going on.
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Jamesicus wrote:
I played Nick in the semi-finals. He had r2 astromechs on his two xwings I THINK he had R2-D2 on wedge, but I can't remember at this point.

I ran Wedge with r2-d2 and swarm, 2 bare rookie pilots and a gold squad with an ion cannon.

I saw at least one 8 Tie squad, but it seemed to me like a lot of players were going with more points in less Tie Fighters. I played three imp players then rebels in the finals. I don't know how their matchups went as far as faction. There was a 3 y-wing list and a 3 y-wing and 1 x-wing list there as well.

Rebel vs Rebel is brutal and fast, but Imp vs Imp is a tough match. Doug obviously knew what he was doing, I believe he had at least 2 mirrors including the semi-finals but possibly more.

I don't know if that's what you guys were looking for, I was mostly just focused on my games and didn't get a great feel as to what else was going on.


Thanks for sharing, and Welcome to BGG!
 
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James Elhardt
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polychrotid wrote:
Jamesicus wrote:
I played Nick in the semi-finals. He had r2 astromechs on his two xwings I THINK he had R2-D2 on wedge, but I can't remember at this point.

I ran Wedge with r2-d2 and swarm, 2 bare rookie pilots and a gold squad with an ion cannon.

I saw at least one 8 Tie squad, but it seemed to me like a lot of players were going with more points in less Tie Fighters. I played three imp players then rebels in the finals. I don't know how their matchups went as far as faction. There was a 3 y-wing list and a 3 y-wing and 1 x-wing list there as well.

Rebel vs Rebel is brutal and fast, but Imp vs Imp is a tough match. Doug obviously knew what he was doing, I believe he had at least 2 mirrors including the semi-finals but possibly more.

I don't know if that's what you guys were looking for, I was mostly just focused on my games and didn't get a great feel as to what else was going on.


Thanks for sharing, and Welcome to BGG!


Thanks! Happy to be here.
 
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boyo25guy
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Hi,

I'm the guy who placed 2nd in Worlds last weekend. The squad I was running was:

Wedge + R2D2
Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech
Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech
Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon

The other two Rebel teams I played against on Saturday were using almost this exact same build, although I believe that both were running Swarm Tactics on Wedge instead of the R2 Astromechs. In my experience, the R2 Astromechs don't come into play very often, but they can win games for you in the mid-to-late game by allowing you to close in on an opposing ship with any "2" maneuver the turn after you execute a Koiogran turn. Swarm Tactics on Wedge is of course also good for 2 points, I just prefer the 2 Astromechs.

As to the formation, I've found that leaving the Y-Wing back on the first turn a little bit usually gives me an inferior alpha strike capability, but lets me get another couple of extra ion cannon shots in subsequent rounds before the battle passes me and I have to turn around. Against Doug's build, that may have been a mistake, as I really probably needed to take out both Howlrunner and another Tie to get the advantage (or to break even after losing Wedge). If anybody's got ideas as to how to effectively fight against that Tie squad using Rebels, I'm all ears. I think that the 3 X-Wing, 1 Y-Wing squad is really good against Rebels, and fights an uphill battle against the Empire in general. I beat the Empire once, but Doug crushed me both games I played against him. I haven't played a ton of games, but I hadn't seen anybody play Howlrunner as effectively as he did.

To me, the biggest takeaway is that if you're playing in a big tournament, the biggest advantage that Rebels give is that if you win, you'll usually get a full 5 points for the victory, instead of a partial win of 3 points if you win a close game with the Empire that goes to time. Most Rebel vs. Rebel games were done in half-an-hour, whereas Empire vs. Empire games almost always went to time. The reason I was able to sneak into the top 4 was that even though I'd lost a game to Doug earlier, my other wins were for full points. That and my strength-of-schedule got me in.

I thought FFG ran an impressive weekend. The events ran really smoothly, and they already had ideas about how to improve it for next year. All of the players I met were great, and while everybody wanted to win their games, everybody was also there to have fun, and nobody I played took things too seriously. I highly recommend trying to go given the opportunity.
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Eric B.
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boyo25guy wrote:
If anybody's got ideas as to how to effectively fight against that Tie squad using Rebels, I'm all ears. I think that the 3 X-Wing, 1 Y-Wing squad is really good against Rebels, and fights an uphill battle against the Empire in general. I beat the Empire once, but Doug crushed me both games I played against him. I haven't played a ton of games, but I hadn't seen anybody play Howlrunner as effectively as he did.


Congrats on your awesome performance!

That tough question you're asking is one that has been heavily discussed here at the Geek. General consensus (though there are certainly some dissenters) is that Rebels really struggle at 100pts to beat swarm Imperial squads.

In particular, a seven TIE build with Howlrunner, Mithel, and Backstabber is nasty, the eight TIE swarm has so much forgiveness and resiliency, and even a six TIE "swarm" with some Swarm Tactics is forboding.


The only real Rebel answer is to run a four ship build (which seems to have been popular at the tournament).

Personally, I prefer Wedge + Biggs w/ (R2-F2) and two Rookie Pilots. Biggs will die pretty early in the exchange, but he forces the opposing TIEs to make a lot of suboptimal shots in the process, firing away at a 3 Agility (and hopefully Range 3) target. This buys Wedge a few more rounds of life to really put the hurt out -- otherwise I find Wedge always seems to die in the first or second round of engagement and doesn't seem to be worth the extra ~10 points invested in him. But who knows, maybe people were running Biggs at the event and just not doing well -- would be curious to see how "Biggs squads" did.
 
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James Elhardt
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My personal answer to that was R2-D2. People usually skipped Wedge. I didn't think that was the right answer, but it worked for me. It probably won't work as the meta get's stronger and we all understand the game better so I'll need a new answer then, maybe +1 shields as an upgrade, i dunno. I'll have to mess around with it, I found Biggs to be too many points and give up the control I like in the Y-Wing. I have been curious about 4 X-Wing builds tho. They seem like a good offensive time.
 
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Scott Egan
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boyo25guy wrote:
Hi,

I'm the guy who placed 2nd in Worlds last weekend. The squad I was running was:

Wedge + R2D2
Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech
Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech
Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon

The other two Rebel teams I played against on Saturday were using almost this exact same build, although I believe that both were running Swarm Tactics on Wedge instead of the R2 Astromechs. In my experience, the R2 Astromechs don't come into play very often, but they can win games for you in the mid-to-late game by allowing you to close in on an opposing ship with any "2" maneuver the turn after you execute a Koiogran turn. Swarm Tactics on Wedge is of course also good for 2 points, I just prefer the 2 Astromechs.

As to the formation, I've found that leaving the Y-Wing back on the first turn a little bit usually gives me an inferior alpha strike capability, but lets me get another couple of extra ion cannon shots in subsequent rounds before the battle passes me and I have to turn around. Against Doug's build, that may have been a mistake, as I really probably needed to take out both Howlrunner and another Tie to get the advantage (or to break even after losing Wedge). If anybody's got ideas as to how to effectively fight against that Tie squad using Rebels, I'm all ears. I think that the 3 X-Wing, 1 Y-Wing squad is really good against Rebels, and fights an uphill battle against the Empire in general. I beat the Empire once, but Doug crushed me both games I played against him. I haven't played a ton of games, but I hadn't seen anybody play Howlrunner as effectively as he did.

To me, the biggest takeaway is that if you're playing in a big tournament, the biggest advantage that Rebels give is that if you win, you'll usually get a full 5 points for the victory, instead of a partial win of 3 points if you win a close game with the Empire that goes to time. Most Rebel vs. Rebel games were done in half-an-hour, whereas Empire vs. Empire games almost always went to time. The reason I was able to sneak into the top 4 was that even though I'd lost a game to Doug earlier, my other wins were for full points. That and my strength-of-schedule got me in.

I thought FFG ran an impressive weekend. The events ran really smoothly, and they already had ideas about how to improve it for next year. All of the players I met were great, and while everybody wanted to win their games, everybody was also there to have fun, and nobody I played took things too seriously. I highly recommend trying to go given the opportunity.


Just watching the first round, you left a 4th of your points on the bench, and that just left you in an untenable position to return the loss of Wedge effectively. Also while target locking provides a marginal benefit over a focus because it can create crits instead of just hits, you may have benefited from focusing with at least one of your rookie X-Wings.

I'm noting both those things because you have to be able to return the loses you are taking in that first round. You have to assume you are going to lose Wedge, so you have to try and get two of his TiEs. Meaning you are going to need all of your ships firing to do so, and you are going to need all your ships firing with an offensive buff. Locking Howlrunner with all three fighters (when it gives you the same odds overall as a focus) was wasting a target lock, in my view. I know you felt you needed to down Howlrunner but I'm pretty sure your opponent would have happily traded Howlrunner for Wedge, so you have to get a bit greedy to even up. The Y-Wing not getting a real shot was just a clear mis-play. If you could have gotten two TiEs in that first pass then I think you are playing even, if not slightly ahead, at that point.
 
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boyo25guy
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Agreed on all points. Giving the third X-Wing a focus action would be a superior play at that point, given that Howlrunner might be gone after the first two X-Wings fire, and I wouldn't have been sacrificing much in terms of likely hits if Howlrunner didn't go down after two shots. I also agree that the importance of eliminating two Ties out of that squad means that I should have been more aggressive with the Y-Wing. I'm looking forward to hearing more tournament reports out of the Kessel Run events to see if the FFG event was indicative of the meta in general.
 
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boyo25guy wrote:

If anybody's got ideas as to how to effectively fight against that Tie squad using Rebels, I'm all ears. I think that the 3 X-Wing, 1 Y-Wing squad is really good against Rebels, and fights an uphill battle against the Empire in general. I beat the Empire once, but Doug crushed me both games I played against him. I haven't played a ton of games, but I hadn't seen anybody play Howlrunner as effectively as he did.


Just a couple ideas:

The first thing I noticed was how easy it was for Doug to maintain his formation. Knowing what you were going to face (since you had faced him before) I would have put more asteroids in the middle of the set up. Once he places his three academy ties on one side, I would have set up diagonally from him, forcing him to navigate through and around asteroids set in the middle of the board. It would have been very hard to maintain his formation that way and he would have had to put just as much thought into avoiding asteroids with his glut of ships as he did positioning them for attack. He probably wouldn't have been able keep Howlrunner as close to the other ships also.

People have already mentioned the handling of the Y-wing and I'm sure you did not intend to crash into Wedge as often as you did. But I was surprised that you put Wedge in the front line. With Howlrunner doing his thing, it was almost guaranteed Wedge was going to die with 4 TIEs firing at him. Doug put Vader in the back, protecting him. I thought he could have put Howlrunner as the fourth TIE in the diamond formation also, and put him at range three from you, but kept him at range 1 for all his TIEs. And Even if Howlrunner could only affect the two TIEs in front of him, surviving to affect two TIEs twice (or more) sounds better than affecting three TIEs once.

Also, if you had started further away from him, your first engagement could have been set up to be at range three, allowing each of your X-wings to get a target lock and not spend it, knowing that almost all the shots that round will miss. Then focusing on the second round, will give you the X-wings ultimate combo.

Also, initiating the combat from a distance would allow you to split your forces and attack his squad from two different sides around an asteroid. This will cause him to either split his formation and probably not take down a ship on the first wave, or ignore the second squad, knowing that they will be able to swing in behind him.

Having said all that, there are probably counters to each of those strategies I haven't thought of, and Doug would still wipe me out. What I love about this game is that it is far from straight forward, and there seems like there is always something new to try.
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Piqsid wrote:
What I love about this game is that it is far from straight forward, and there seems like there is always something new to try.

Agreed!
 
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I had made my above comments after watching only the first round of combat. Now I have some different advise after watching the next two: You need better luck Even after losing wedge in the first round you still had a chance but you rolled terribly and Doug rolled amazing. You had two X-wings roll at range 1 on a TIE and didn't do one damage. Then I saw Doug accidentally roll three for an attack and only got one hit. He rerolled only 2 dice and got a hit and a crit. You couldn't roll an evade to save your life.

You might have still lost, but I think if you played the second exchange onward getting expected statistical results, you would have taken out at least 2 or 3 more TIEs.
 
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