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Subject: Are the rules poorly worded in describing the tie-break? rss

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Jonathan C
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From the Tammany Hall rules:

Quote:
The player who wins the most wards becomes the mayor and scores
three additional victory points. He should place one of his ward boss
pieces in the Mayor box.

In case of ties, use the following tie breakers in order to determine
who will become the mayor:
1. The player with the most political favor chips in their possession.
2. ...
3. ...


This can be interpreted one of two different ways.

Option A: The player must be selected from among the players who "tie" for the most wards won. or,

Option B: The player is selected from among all of "the players".

I'm pretty sure the answer is Option A, but it is worded in such a way that Option B is still a possibility.

???
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Ken Dilloo
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The Ginger Ninja
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The bit about no resolution, and the current mayor remains is even worse, if not exceedingly unlikely.

I would always play it as option A, as well. The designer is fairly active here, so hopefully he will confirm.

On the other hand, it is rather difficult to make a come-back, so it might be an interesting, rags-to-riches varient/house rule.

Edit: Actually, it is exceedingly unlikely that someone far behind would have a glut of favor, so that seems unlikely too.
 
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Jeff Huter
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For what it's worth, I implemented the tiebreaker as Option A at www.slothninja.com. Yes, there may be a bit of ambiguity. But, I think it's a fair assumption, unless things clearly state otherwise, a "tiebreaker" applies to only those individuals that are in fact tied at that point and that the additional conditions merely further reduce the pool of perspective winners.

As for the lack of coming from behind, I highly disagree. Yes, you can get yourself completely out of contention early in the game with no hope of coming back. With that said, I've seen people win the game after not winning a single Ward election in the first term. Also, having the lead and being Mayor going into the last Term can be brutal.
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Ken Dilloo
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Yup, it certainly makes sense.

So, you disagree that it is sometimes hard to come back, then say, "Yes, you can get yourself completely out of contention early in the game with no hope of coming back". That is a bit confusing, indeed.

A lot of games are tough to come back at, and especially games of this vein, where you can get bashed on, even if you are not the leader.
 
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Justus Pendleton
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looleypalooley wrote:
Quote:
In case of ties, use the following tie breakers...


I'm pretty sure the answer is Option A, but it is worded in such a way that Option B is still a possibility.


Not really (IMHO, obviously). "tie breakers" always mean "among the people who are tied".

c.f. wikipedia's definition:

Quote:
In games and sports, a tiebreaker or tiebreak is used to determine a winner from among players or teams that are tied at the end of a contest, or a set of contests.


Option B requires a very non-standard definition of "tie breaker", I should think. Compare, for example, Confucius's "Admiral Variation" where a tie between players results in a non-tied player winning. It doesn't refer to it as a tie breaker, though it does have tie breakers for other cases.
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Ken Dilloo
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hoostus wrote:
looleypalooley wrote:
Quote:
In case of ties, use the following tie breakers...


I'm pretty sure the answer is Option A, but it is worded in such a way that Option B is still a possibility.


Not really (IMHO, obviously). "tie breakers" always mean "among the people who are tied".

c.f. wikipedia's definition:

Quote:
In games and sports, a tiebreaker or tiebreak is used to determine a winner from among players or teams that are tied at the end of a contest, or a set of contests.


Option B requires a very non-standard definition of "tie breaker", I should think. Compare, for example, Confucius's "Admiral Variation" where a tie between players results in a non-tied player winning. It doesn't refer to it as a tie breaker, though it does have tie breakers for other cases.


Actually, this is contradicted by the rule for retaining the mayor, from the previous turn, if tie-break is not resolvable. If two players are tied for wards, and all the way down the tie-break tree, the current mayor remains, even if they aren't one of the two tied players. So, while this is exceedingly unlikely, it does show some precedence, and why this is a valid question.
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Jonathan C
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bigloo33 wrote:
hoostus wrote:
looleypalooley wrote:
Quote:
In case of ties, use the following tie breakers...


I'm pretty sure the answer is Option A, but it is worded in such a way that Option B is still a possibility.


Not really (IMHO, obviously). "tie breakers" always mean "among the people who are tied".

c.f. wikipedia's definition:

Quote:
In games and sports, a tiebreaker or tiebreak is used to determine a winner from among players or teams that are tied at the end of a contest, or a set of contests.


Option B requires a very non-standard definition of "tie breaker", I should think. Compare, for example, Confucius's "Admiral Variation" where a tie between players results in a non-tied player winning. It doesn't refer to it as a tie breaker, though it does have tie breakers for other cases.


Actually, this is contradicted by the rule for retaining the mayor, from the previous turn, if tie-break is not resolvable. If two players are tied for wards, and all the way down the tie-break tree, the current mayor remains, even if they aren't one of the two tied players. So, while this is exceedingly unlikely, it does show some precedence, and why this is a valid question.


Exactly. So for this game in particular, a tie-break condition is not always among players that are tied. I guess this game breaks Wikipedia, or at least, fits the definition of non-standard used by:
Justus Pendleton
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Ken Dilloo
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Guess if you really wanted to split hairs (and who on BGG doesn't love hair splitting?), once all the tie break conditions have been run down, I suppose it might not be considered a tie break, at that point.

Just a lawyerly work around, since Wikipedia is infallible
 
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Michael Mesich
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I'm guessing this is only being brought up because someone not involved in the tie wanted to bust in with his immigrant favors and is trying to bend common sense and the rules to do so.

Because this is a bit silly, really.



Ties can only be broken amongst the ones tied, otherwise it's an alternate win condition and not a tie-breaker.

If the tie can't be broken, then there is an alternate win condition that goes to the incumbant.
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Jim Temple
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It's not that silly, really. While it's not the norm, this wouldn't be the first game to use a tie-breaker like that.

For example, Ys does this. If columns are tied in the market and the 1st two tie-breakers don't decide it, then whoever has the highest total in front of their screen decides it -- even if that player is not involved in the original tie.

Clarified in this thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/34533/question-about-resolvi...
 
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doug eckhart
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Michael gets the top marks, second to Ken for helping to preserve Pope Wikipedia's infallibility.

When players are tied, the tie breakers apply to them until the last condition. When none of the time breakers can resolve it, the current Mayor seizes the moment and retains his seat.

Rules are ponderous things to write, sorry any confusion. They would be even less clear if Max didn't draft the final versions to most of our games.
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Max Michael
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Jeff gets a shout out as well.
Ah shucks Doug, who knew you could be so sweet?
 
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Jonathan C
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edoug wrote:
Michael gets the top marks, second to Ken for helping to preserve Pope Wikipedia's infallibility.

When players are tied, the tie breakers apply to them until the last condition. When none of the time breakers can resolve it, the current Mayor seizes the moment and retains his seat.


Thanks for the clear response!

edoug wrote:
Rules are ponderous things to write


Indeed. You can't know exactly how somebody might try and twist it into a different meaning! ninja
 
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