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Shadowrift» Forums » Rules

Subject: Revised Rules Availability rss

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ZW Garth
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Found this game at my LGS, tried it out, and absolutely love it--but, like others, I'm incredibly vexxed by the rulebook. I've been scouring the forums to get the official rulings on vague rules and it's helped a lot so far (thank you, Jeremy, for being so active). I know Jeremy is looking into ways to improve the rulebook for the next time around, and I was just wondering if there would be any chances of the revised rulebook being made available to the public or to people who own the first edition of the game--perhaps in .pdf file like Fantasy Flight makes available.

I love the game a lot but I've been prevented from really enjoying it without stress because of constantly finding my questions not answered in the rulebook. So I guess my question is whether or not we will have access to the new rules, or whether I'll just have to print out the forum's errata haha, and whether there were other people wondering similarly.

Once again, thanks again Mr. Anderson for the great game, the obvious work that you put into it, and for being so active and helpful.
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Jeremy Anderson
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As always, thanks for playing!

I can promise that I'm working on a revised copy of the rules and that I'll put them online once I've got them.
However, I don't have much time to work on them, between my day job, design work on Shadowrift Expansions, and design work on my other games. It may be a few months before a comprehensive replacement doc hits the web, and it certainly won't be formatted in a pretty way as the original was - It'll probably just be a text document with one or two necessary images embedded. Work on an official replacement document won't begin until we're getting going on a second print run, which may be half a year from now.
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John Van Wagoner
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karishi wrote:
As always, thanks for playing!

I can promise that I'm working on a revised copy of the rules and that I'll put them online once I've got them.
However, I don't have much time to work on them, between my day job, design work on Shadowrift Expansions, and design work on my other games. It may be a few months before a comprehensive replacement doc hits the web, and it certainly won't be formatted in a pretty way as the original was - It'll probably just be a text document with one or two necessary images embedded. Work on an official replacement document won't begin until we're getting going on a second print run, which may be half a year from now.
just a quick thought: if the rulebook isn't fixed 1st, there might not be much demand for any expansions...and really, i'm not trying to be a jerk, but it just seems to make sense to me...i'm returning my unplayed 1st edition to amazon.com, and will wait until the 2nd edition rules are avail...(it was an impulse purchase, and only after ordering did i really sit down and try and go through the rules...and that kind of soured me on the game, but ONLY as it stands now...i'm hoping to have my mind changed again)(smile)
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Jeremy Anderson
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Not to worry! Rulebook issues on the base game absolutely won't have an impact on expansion pack sales. First of all, because an updated rulebook will be present before any expansions. And second, because anyone buying the expansions will already have played the base game. And this is one of those games where once you know how to play you never touch the rulebook again.

Also, if you haven't already sent back the game I'd heartily recommend rahdo's video walkthrough here on BGG. I think seeing the game in action you'll get how the game works and the written rules will "click" much better.
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Jonathan Franklin
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Will anything change in the 2nd edition of Shadowrift other than the text of the rules? I have been stung a few times by buying the 1st edition and then having the expansions be primarily compatible with the 2nd edition.

New card producer?
New size cards?
Changes to text/icons?
etc.
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Scott
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karishi wrote:
Rulebook issues on the base game absolutely won't have an impact on expansion pack sales. First of all, because an updated rulebook will be present before any expansions. And second, because anyone buying the expansions will already have played the base game.


They may have an impact on sales. I won't buy any expansions if I don't buy the base game. I won't buy the base game because I can't be stuffed trying to work through a rulebook others are saying is abominable.
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chearns
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I do not own the game (yet), but seeing all the hubbub here I chose to read the rules. They are not awesome, for that they would need more examples and diagrams. However, they are perfectly fine and better than many (particularly anything by FFG). I don't have any questions on gameplay after reading them.

My guess is questions come up on the subject of card text and card interactions, as they do in every card game where different cards have different effects.

So, if people are having problems understanding the game, I think that's more on them than on the quality of the rulebook.
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Jeremy Anderson
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chearns wrote:
I do not own the game (yet), but seeing all the hubbub here I chose to read the rules. They are not awesome, for that they would need more examples and diagrams. However, they are perfectly fine and better than many (particularly anything by FFG). I don't have any questions on gameplay after reading them.

My guess is questions come up on the subject of card text and card interactions, as they do in every card game where different cards have different effects.

So, if people are having problems understanding the game, I think that's more on them than on the quality of the rulebook.


laugh
I am really glad to see someone say this. I can't say it because I'm the designer; Who's going to believe me when I say "actually my rules aren't that bad," really?
 
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Scott
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karishi wrote:
chearns wrote:
So, if people are having problems understanding the game, I think that's more on them than on the quality of the rulebook.


laugh
I am really glad to see someone say this. I can't say it because I'm the designer; Who's going to believe me when I say "actually my rules aren't that bad," really?


I had one question arising from an ambiguity in the rules, though that was some days ago and I don't recall it now (I've just looked it up and it's an awkwardly phrased paragraph on page six about heroism tokens). His rules aren't that bad though I do think that there are points of grammar and syntax that should be tidied. I had half a mind to sit down and do so but there were other things I much preferred to do since I figured it would be for naught. I do appreciate the rather informal style which Jeremy has adopted.
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chearns
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I now own the game and have played it twice against the demons. We made two errors for one and a half games. We didn't hunt on a kill that wasn't in play (the standard error and Jeremy has already stated that needs to be fixed in the rulebook to increase prominence) and we didn't put corpses in town when villagers died (although I don't blame the rulebook for that, I just think there's a lot to do in this game and we forgot that one).

The only card text question we ran into going up against the demons was on the cultists. Remove from play sounds a lot more like remove from game than it does put on the bottom of the traveller deck.
 
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karishi wrote:
It may be a few months before a comprehensive replacement doc hits the web...


Jeremy, do you have an update on this? My friend and I just got the game, and I'd love to have a single source for the rules, even if it isn't nicely formatted yet.

I've been poking around the forums for your posts and while they are there, they are scattered a bit.

Thanks for your contributions to this forum, btw!
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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karishi wrote:
chearns wrote:
I do not own the game (yet), but seeing all the hubbub here I chose to read the rules. They are not awesome, for that they would need more examples and diagrams. However, they are perfectly fine and better than many (particularly anything by FFG). I don't have any questions on gameplay after reading them.

My guess is questions come up on the subject of card text and card interactions, as they do in every card game where different cards have different effects.

So, if people are having problems understanding the game, I think that's more on them than on the quality of the rulebook.


laugh
I am really glad to see someone say this. I can't say it because I'm the designer; Who's going to believe me when I say "actually my rules aren't that bad," really?


And I'm really sad to see that you're even a tiny bit comforted by that comment in defense of the rules Jeremy.

They are notoriously bad. I haven't heard your game mentioned once in months, online or off, without a warning about the rules being a world of suck.

When the friggin' Dice Tower guys, who have learned literally HUNDREDS of games from rulebooks go out of their way to discuss how they struggled, then the rules themselves most certainly are the problem, period. Just because some like chearns found them sufficient doesn't change that.

What you are not taking to heart is that people aren't exactly inspired to hear that the designer himself is more preoccupied with putting out an expansion for the game than fixing a widely bitched about issue with the original release... first.

karishi wrote:
Not to worry! Rulebook issues on the base game absolutely won't have an impact on expansion pack sales.


I'm downright astounded by how myopic this statement is.

Of course it's going to impact your expansion sales. It's already significantly hurting the sales of the base game, and by extension that is limiting the number of expansion buyers down the road. How is that not obvious?

Tend to your day job obviously, but show a bit of respect to your potential customers (and existing ones that put the game on a shelf unplayed out of frustration) and put aside the expansion for a week to hammer out a genuinely excellent rulebook even if it's just a text file and nothing more.

Hell, since manual writing obviously isn't your strong suit, crowd source some help from your existing fans. Offer a free copy of the expansion to 2 or 3 talented game explainers in exchange for their help.

Share it with a beta group of a dozen completely new players with no access to other help, get their feedback, tweak, and release.

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Craig West
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NuMystic wrote:
karishi wrote:
chearns wrote:
I do not own the game (yet), but seeing all the hubbub here I chose to read the rules. They are not awesome, for that they would need more examples and diagrams. However, they are perfectly fine and better than many (particularly anything by FFG). I don't have any questions on gameplay after reading them.

My guess is questions come up on the subject of card text and card interactions, as they do in every card game where different cards have different effects.

So, if people are having problems understanding the game, I think that's more on them than on the quality of the rulebook.


laugh
I am really glad to see someone say this. I can't say it because I'm the designer; Who's going to believe me when I say "actually my rules aren't that bad," really?


And I'm really sad to see that you're even a tiny bit comforted by that comment in defense of the rules Jeremy.

They are notoriously bad. I haven't heard your game mentioned once in months, online or off, without a warning about the rules being a world of suck.

When the friggin' Dice Tower guys, who have learned literally HUNDREDS of games from rulebooks go out of their way to discuss how they struggled, then the rules themselves most certainly are the problem, period. Just because some like chearns found them sufficient doesn't change that.

What you are not taking to heart is that people aren't exactly inspired to hear that the designer himself is more preoccupied with putting out an expansion for the game than fixing a widely bitched about issue with the original release... first.

karishi wrote:
Not to worry! Rulebook issues on the base game absolutely won't have an impact on expansion pack sales.


I'm downright astounded by how myopic this statement is.

Of course it's going to impact your expansion sales. It's already significantly hurting the sales of the base game, and by extension that is limiting the number of expansion buyers down the road. How is that not obvious?

Tend to your day job obviously, but show a bit of respect to your potential customers (and existing ones that put the game on a shelf unplayed out of frustration) and put aside the expansion for a week to hammer out a genuinely excellent rulebook even if it's just a text file and nothing more.

Hell, since manual writing obviously isn't your strong suit, crowd source some help from your existing fans. Offer a free copy of the expansion to 2 or 3 talented game explainers in exchange for their help.

Share it with a beta group of a dozen completely new players with no access to other help, get their feedback, tweak, and release.



I cant help but feel something for a designer who's work has been hammered a lot in these forums and elsewhere but i really do agree with the major bits of this post. As a game purchaser/player hearing anything other than the rulebook will be fixed full stop, job 1, before any other project being worked on is a slap in the face.
 
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