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Subject: Why are the people 'on holiday' one face down and then one face up? rss

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Rufus Frog
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This seems counterintuitive to me. First you place a card face down, then one face up. If it's the King then it goes back into the pack, thus everyone knows that the king is not 'on holiday' at the start of the round.

Why this matters is if you are the final player to choose a role in this situation and you have a choice of roles that doesn't include the king but does include the assassin and/or the thief, you are 100% certain the king is out there somewhere and can be confidently assassinated or robbed from (assuming everyone else has money on the table).

If the initial 'going on holiday' sequence was reversed, and the king was shuffled back in, he could still be on holiday as the face down character, keeping everyone after the current king guessing. This seems to me be more in keeping with the spirit of the game.

Does anyone else prefer to play one up then one down, or is the knowing that the king is in the mix a valuable part of the game (e.g. for limiting the power of that card slightly)?
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rufusfrog wrote:
This seems counterintuitive to me. First you place a card face down, then one face up. If it's the King then it goes back into the pack, thus everyone knows that the king is not 'on holiday' at the start of the round.

Why this matters is if you are the final player to chose a role in this situation and you have a choice of roles that doesn't include the king but does include the assassin and/or the thief, you are 100% certain the king is out there somewhere and can be confidently assassinated or robbed from (assuming everyone else has money on the table).
Not necessarily... if you have the Ass. or Thief and the 2nd card isn't the King, you know the King can't be the face up card (you and every1 else would've seen it), but it could be the face down card.

If everyone before you knew the Ass./Thief got passed off, with the King being a possible pick, it is risky for them to choose the King. However, the Merchant and Architect are often also prime targets for Ass./Thief, so that cuts a good amount slack off from the King.


rufusfrog wrote:
If the initial 'going on holiday' sequence was reversed, and the king was shuffled back in, he could still be on holiday as the face down character, keeping everyone after the current king guessing. This seems to me be more in keeping with the spirit of the game.

Does anyone else prefer to play one up then one down, or is the knowing that the king is in the mix a valuable part of the game (e.g. for limiting the power of that card slightly)?
Ohh, I answered each passage as I read them.... now we get to this....

That's what I do in my groups....
1) flip up 1 random char card
1a) if it's the King, flip up another char card, and shuffle King back in

2) randomly select one char to be face down. There's nothing saying that the face down char can't be the King. All the rules say (FF, "slim box edition") is he can't be any of the face up cards.
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Rufus Frog
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ackmondual wrote:

That's what I do in my groups....
1) flip up 1 random char card
1a) if it's the King, flip up another char card, and shuffle King back in

2) randomly select one char to be face down. There's nothing saying that the face down char can't be the King.


The rules say:

'First draw one random card from the Character Deck and set it facedown in the center of the table... Then draw a second set of cards from the Character Deck and set them faceup in the middle... If you draw the "King" character to be faceup, immediately replace it with another random card....'

(N. B. No. of face up cards can be 0-2 depending on no. of players, I normally play with 5 people, hence my references to 1 face up card.)

So you are playing a house rule by reversing the order of these instructions. One I would prefer to play but can't persuade the rest of my group.
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Ghislain LEVEQUE
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I'm also playing by first drawing one card faceup (retry if it's the king) then one facedown.
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Disgustipater
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rufusfrog wrote:
So you are playing a house rule by reversing the order of these instructions. One I would prefer to play but can't persuade the rest of my group.

What possible difference would it make? Why wouldn't they go for it?
 
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rufusfrog wrote:
ackmondual wrote:

That's what I do in my groups....
1) flip up 1 random char card
1a) if it's the King, flip up another char card, and shuffle King back in

2) randomly select one char to be face down. There's nothing saying that the face down char can't be the King.


The rules say:

'First draw one random card from the Character Deck and set it facedown in the center of the table... Then draw a second set of cards from the Character Deck and set them faceup in the middle... If you draw the "King" character to be faceup, immediately replace it with another random card....'
Isn't this the same difference? The 1st card that's face DOWN can still be the King, and thus, there's still the chance you won't have him passed around during the char selection phase.

I do the 1st card face UP on accout if it's the King, I can immediately draw another card face UP, then shuffle the King back in for the face DOWN card. If the King is the face UP card after having a face down card, everyone knows the King will be available, so that creates more mystery there to cover all ends.
 
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Rufus Frog
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ackmondual wrote:
Isn't this the same difference? The 1st card that's face DOWN can still be the King, and thus, there's still the chance you won't have him passed around during the char selection phase.

I do the 1st card face UP on accout if it's the King, I can immediately draw another card face UP, then shuffle the King back in for the face DOWN card. If the King is the face UP card after having a face down card, everyone knows the King will be available, so that creates more mystery there to cover all ends.


If one does the face up card 1st it preserves the mystery of whether the king is in that round or not (when the king is flipped up and shuffled back in). If one does the face up card 2nd (and the king is flipped up and shuffled back in) then it removes the element of mystery for the final player in the round (in fact for every player after the king is taken), which seems a strange exception in a game where everyone not knowing exactly which roles are in play is a key part of the mechanic. It's a minor difference, I grant you, but still a significant one.

But the rules categorically state that the face down card comes first and some people do play by the rules. I suppose I was hoping for someone to say that there had been a ruling from the game's designer that face up first was better for the game. Either that or an argument as to why it's better to play the rule as written.
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Maybe you have to draw face down first then face up to allow the King to get to the final player?

In my experience a King is often picked by the first half of players which puts the player right from the starter king for a long time in the last/later choice seat.

If everyone knows the King is in the deck the later players might benefit (assassination still moves the crown)
 
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