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Subject: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES set off chum rss

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Joel Gardner
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Edited.

I received an email from FFG signed by Lukas Litzsinger himself this morning. I was wrong and now we can put the whole issue to rest.

Chum does indeed cause 3 net damage if not broken and the ice after it is bypassed by Femme Fatale.
 
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Paul Grogan
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Old news I'm afraid. Whilst you are right, the FAQ has been out for a while now, so anyone who was playing it wrong is not hopefully playing it correct.
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Joel Gardner
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
PaulGrogan wrote:
Old news I'm afraid. Whilst you are right, the FAQ has been out for a while now, so anyone who was playing it wrong is not hopefully playing it correct.


Yes, I know its been out for a while, but I have still seen people post otherwise since the FAQ being published, and no one has corrected them. In fact, the opposite has happened. People have argued a false ruling.
 
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Sorry can you point me out the FAQ where it clears this up? Because I couldn't find it when searching for Femme Fatale or Chum.

 
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Noah D

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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
It does..... this thread is wrong and the title is misleading. You should probably change it. shake

And because I'm lazy and this question has come up a multitude of times before:

Hrrrmmm wrote:
The effect on Femme Fatale is a conditional trigger ability with the trigger 'When encounter.' If you never encounter the chosen ice, you can never use the conditional trigger ability to bypass it. If you meet the trigger for the FF ability, you have encountered the ice.

Chum cares about two things:
1) Did you encounter a piece of ice after it?
2) Did you break all the subs on that piece of ice?

If you are able to use the FF ability because you chose the ice after it then
1) You encountered that piece of ice, because if you didn't the trigger on the FF ability wouldn't have been met and you couldn't use it
2) If you use the ability to bypass that ice you did not break all the subroutines on it.


go here if you would like see Lukas (game designer) answering this question, and also answering the question of femme fatale interacting with Data Raven or Tollbooth (it does prevent that, and that is what the bit of text you bolded is actually clarifying)

Note, the reason for all of this is that Chum's ability is not a conditional ability meeting it's condition on encounter. It actually meets its condition AFTER the encounter ends and based upon whether or not the subroutines on that Ice were broken (FAQ clarifies that they were not)
Furthermore, the FAQ also reveals that Chum actually creates a constant ability, hence why the +2 strength from it would be applied before Ice Carver in a case where parasite might otherwise trash the ice on encounter.
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Arto H
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
argus88 wrote:
It does..... this thread is wrong and the title is misleading. You should probably change it.


I agree. That thing in FAQ means you will not pay 3 creds when encountering Tollbooth with Femme counter for example. Those are "abilities that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.". Chum just cares about subroutines.
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Joshua Siegfried
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Syncitia wrote:
From the FAQ:

Quote:
“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving
.


emphasis added.

I have been called out in forums in the past for stating that chum wouldn't fire off if Femme Fatale was used on the ice after it. I would just like to draw attention to this excerpt. This is the official ruling in the FAQ. Yes, the subroutines are not "broken," but bypassing prevents the trigger condition (next ice encountered) from resolving.

I have a feeling that the majority of us have been playing this wrong and I just wanted to let the masses know.


I'm afraid you are both misinterpreting the FAQ on this issue. Chum does in fact cause the net damage if the ICE following it is bypassed using Femme Fatale. Actually, the FAQ entry you quoted confirms it.

When it said "Bypassing prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving", they are referring to the 'When the runner encounters..." text on cards like Data Raven and Tollbooth. Those are conditional abilities. The rulebook even uses the same terminology when explaining conditional abilities.

The effect from Chum is NOT a conditional ability. It does not say "When the runner encounters the next piece of ice." It says, "The next piece of ice the Runner encounters during this run has +2 strength. Do 3 net damage unless the Runner breaks all subroutines on that piece of ice. " That is a constant ability. By not breaking the subroutine on Chum, you have created a constant ability that will fire off if it is not satisfied. The wording for Conditional Abilities is very specific.

In fact, the FAQ entry you quoted includes the line "Any subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken" just to reiterate the fact that Chum would still fire off. I guess they could have made that more specific by mentioning Chum directly though.

So bottom line, Chum would still fire off because it is not a conditional ability. Conditional abilities contain the text "When the runner..." or "Whenever the runner...". Chum does not use that text and is not conditional, therefore it is not included in the FAQ entry you quoted and bolded above. It creates a constant effect that only fires off if the subroutines on the next ICE it encounters are not broken. Since an ICE must be encountered before it can be bypassed, the effect fires off if you use Femme Fatale to bypass it.

But don't take my word for it. Lukas answered this exact question directly (to a rules question sent into FFG) in this thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/852470/chum-question/pag...

Question:
Quote:
There's some disagreement about how Chum interacts with ICE that is bypassable. For example:

ICE #1 is Chum. The runner does not break its subroutines.
ICE #2 is the ice that Femme Fatale may pay to bypass.

Assuming the runner pays to bypass ICE #2 with Femme Fatale, does the runner then take damage from Chum?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated!


Answer:
Quote:
Thanks for the question. Yes, the Runner will still take damage from Chum since the ice was encountered, and bypassing does not break subroutines.

--
Lukas Litzsinger


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Joel Gardner
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
I'm calling bull.

That is a link to a forum discussion BEFORE the FAQ came out. Plus the "quote" from Lukas Litzsinger has no source. It's just some guy saying he said it.
 
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Noah D

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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Syncitia wrote:
I'm calling bull.

That is a link to a forum discussion BEFORE the FAQ came out. Plus the "quote" from Lukas Litzsinger has no source. It's just some guy saying he said it.


Dude, you're joking right? Just admit you misinterpreted it, change the title and first post so as not to mislead people and move on.

It's totally understandable that you misunderstood this, I think this could have been made a lot more clear in the FAQ and really should have just included the explicit examples of bypassing with Tollbooth and bypassing after Chum. That said, now you've got the answer, you've got the reasoning, and you have the word straight from the designer. Don't be stubborn.

This was BEFORE the FAQ came out, you're right. Almost everything in the FAQ was just rulings that we'd already received from playtesters getting direct responses from the designer based on questions that arose from the community. So yes, we had the ruling on this before the FAQ, and then it made it into the FAQ, though like I said less explicitly that I wish it had been included
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Joel Gardner
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Nope. Not joking. I believe the FAQ trumps an older forum discussion.

Edit: I don't like being so confrontational, but I firmly believe that this is the way it is supposed to be played. Only an official FFG ruling otherwise would make me walk away with my tail between my legs. We'll see when the ruling inevitably happens. Until then I guess.
 
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Joshua Siegfried
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Syncitia wrote:
Nope. Not joking. I believe the FAQ trumps an older forum discussion.

Edit: I don't like being so confrontational, but I firmly believe that this is the way it is supposed to be played. Only an official FFG ruling otherwise would make me walk away with my tail between my legs. We'll see when the ruling inevitably happens. Until then I guess.


Okay, then why don't you send the question into FFG again and ask for clarification? Seems to me that you will only believe it if you hear it from the designer directly, so it has to be you I think.

Here is the link in case you don't know.
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp

Let us know what you find out and we can put this issue to rest.
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Noah D

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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Syncitia wrote:
Nope. Not joking. I believe the FAQ trumps an older forum discussion.

Well both Joshua and I pointed out how the bit you highlighted from the FAQ doesn't apply to this case...

But yeah, if someone else asked this specific question of the designer, got an answer and then shared it and that isn't enough for you (you think they made it up?) then like Joshua said it seems like your best bet is to go get the answer directly yourself.

When you have though, please do come back and fix up the title and initial post. I also don't wish to be confrontational, but coming in here and making a post with bold and inaccurate assertions isn't helping anything and could mislead people. If you had "been called out in forums in the past for stating that chum wouldn't fire off if Femme Fatale was used on the ice after it" it would have been much more appropriate to continue the discussion there with the person in question rather than just firing off a post stating your misunderstandings as definitive fact.
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Brad Miller
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Yes, OP is wrong, LOL
 
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B C Z
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Chum's effect does not trigger on encounter (step 3 of the Run Timing Diagram). It cannot, because the Runner needs a chance to break all subroutines on the encountered ICE in 3.1 to prevent the damage. Chum will resolve its effect in 3.2 after all unbroken Subroutines have been resolved.

Per the FAQ (underlined portion below) if a piece of ICE is bypassed, its subroutines remain unbroken:
Quote:
“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken.
Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.


You have quoted the bolded portion. I have additionally underlined the important clause.

The encountered ICE (and you have to encounter to bypass) does not have a subroutine called 'do 2 net damage because you didn't break all the subroutines on this ICE'... Chum has that ability, and by not breaking the subroutine on Chum you have an unresolved effect that cares only about two things:

If a piece of ICE is encountered, did the Runner break all of the subroutines on it?

Per the FAQ, underlined portion above, a bypassed piece of ICE has unbroken subroutines, so the effect that the Runner chose to accept by not breaking Chum's subroutine AND continuing the run occurs.

QED

Please edit the title of the thread.
 
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
For what it is worth, OP, I was at Worlds last weekend and Lukas had to clarify this in a game nearby. Chum IS set off in this case.
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Joel Gardner
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
With Brady's comment my belief is beginning to falter. If Lukas really said that last week then it doesn't look like this will end well for me.

I have submitted the question for an official fantasy flight ruling on their website. Thank you for the link.

I will change the title of the thread if the ruling is not in my favor.
 
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum
Syncitia wrote:
With Brady's comment my belief is beginning to falter. If Lukas really said that last week then it doesn't look like this will end well for me.

I have submitted the question for an official fantasy flight ruling on their website. Thank you for the link.

I will change the title of the thread if the ruling is not in my favor.



Why not add a ? to the end in the meantime.
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
Syncitia wrote:
With Brady's comment my belief is beginning to falter. If Lukas really said that last week then it doesn't look like this will end well for me.

I have submitted the question for an official fantasy flight ruling on their website. Thank you for the link.

I will change the title of the thread if the ruling is not in my favor.

ITT: the perils of personalizing objective true/false things. You, your favor, etc. are not material.
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Joel Gardner
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
Quote:
Quote:
With Brady's comment my belief is beginning to falter. If Lukas really said that last week then it doesn't look like this will end well for me.

I have submitted the question for an official fantasy flight ruling on their website. Thank you for the link.

I will change the title of the thread if the ruling is not in my favor.


ITT: the perils of personalizing objective true/false things. You, your favor, etc. are not material.


Well, the worst that could happen is that I destroy my non-existent internet credibility and I go back to lurking.

I too would like to put this issue to rest, so I think it is for the greater good that I see this through to the end.
 
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Noah D

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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
Syncitia wrote:

Well, the worst that could happen is that I destroy my non-existent internet credibility and I go back to lurking.


Just for future reference, being mistaken about something... is just human, and happens to all of us, so that in no way "destroys your credibility"

The creation of this thread didn't do a great deal for you though... as, like I said you should have just discussed this matter wherever it was that you encountered people disagreeing with your interpretation. The style of your initial post, but particularly the title were inflammatory.

Further, your response to people explaining it in detail to you... could have been better.

Just saying this because I feel you're getting caught up in "your interpretation" and that your credibility rests on its confirmation, which is the last thing here that is giving off any negative impressions in my eyes.

but, you know, keep running (or corping), having fun, and don't let it scare you off from contributing to the forums
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J. Chris Miller
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
I'm glad you posted this because it made me read why chum does work. I've not even run into the situation, but it's interesting reading the nuance interactions in such a deceptively complex game. I think I would have instinctively sided with you on the issue had it come up in a game, but after reading that FAQ blurb, and the key clauses which point to the issue, it's pretty obvious that it's not the case.

I love Netrunner. It's such an elegant game, but it does have it's complex logic as well.
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Martin Presley
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
It seems to me that when a piece of ICE is bypassed, it is NOT encountered. This is supported by conditional abilities that resolve on encountering the ICE not resolving when bypassing. So since Chum effects the next encountered ICE, it seems to me that FF would cleanly bypass the Tollbooth/Archer/Whatever, and Chum would instead apply to the ICE behind FF's target, since it is the next in the sequence to be encountered.

If I am wrong, and bypassed ICE is technically encountered, but abilities that resolve upon encountering do not trigger, which I find a strange and counter-intuitive, then so be it. I would, however, naturally assume that Chum simply applies to the ICE behind the bypassed one, since it is the next ICE that is encountered in that run.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
The Runner cannot bypass a piece of ice if he does not encounter it. Read the text on Inside Job and Femme Fatale if you are not convinced. Both cards work on an encountered piece of ice, not on an approached piece of ice.
Then, when the Runner encounters a piece of ice, he can interact with it, and bypass it, before the card's effect resolves.
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Brian Grell
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
This is a bit of a mind bender but just so I'm clear, if you encounter and bypass a Tollbooth after Chum without breaking Chum's sub, you don't have to pay the 3 credits but do take the 3 damage right?
 
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Martin Presley
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Re: Using Femme Fatale to bypass ice after chum DOES NOT set off chum?
Pyjam wrote:
The Runner cannot bypass a piece of ice if he does not encounter it. Read the text on Inside Job and Femme Fatale if you are not convinced. Both cards work on an encountered piece of ice, not on an approached piece of ice.
Then, when the Runner encounters a piece of ice, he can interact with it, and bypass it, before the card's effect resolves.


Dang, you're right. That's still really weird intuitively, but it does clearly work that way on closer scrutiny.
 
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