William Maynard
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I have been tossing around the idea of striking Russia with Germany on turn four after three rounds of building up ground forces.

It would work something like this.

On G1 I would build 3 Mech. Inf. And 3 tanks (30 IPCs) while activating 4 INF in Bulgaria (+2 IPCs) and 4 INF in Finland (+1 IPC). I would also attack France with all the tanks, INF and artillery within reach that round.

I would use the Luftwaffe to destroy the UK fleet and then land them in Holland to help keep the Atlantic free of UK transports and help hinder an allied invasion plans through the Atlantic.

After capturing Paris and collecting France’s 19 IPCs I would have 62 IPCs for my building phase on G2, including the 5 IPC bonus for Germany controlling Norway and 5 more IPCs for not being at war with Russia.

On G2 I build 5 Mech. Inf. and 7 tanks, all the while sending every German unit towards the Russian front preparing to strike.

And on G3 I would build 4 Mech. Inf., 5 tanks, and 1 regular Inf. My plan is strike on turn 4 sending the 10 starting INF in Germany towards Leningrad with any artillery and tanks I originally started with.

I would take all the Mech. Inf. (12 in all) and tanks (15 in all) I have built over the last three rounds and strike south towards the Ukraine (+2 IPCs) and in Stalingrad (+7 IPCs, 2 for the territory and 5 for the bonus for capturing Stalingrad) then swing into the Caucus, then Persia, Northwest Persia and Eastern Persia (+6 IPCs for capturing all 3 territories).

While draining Russia of her most valuable IPC territories Germany is sucking up mad bonuses and taking two factories from Russia. My hope is that with building only Mech. Inf. I can get INF up to the front quicker to take hits while my tanks have a better chance to keep fighting.

The captured factories in Russia would start pumping out tanks to assault Moscow and my factories in Germany would have been pumping out Mech. Inf. and tanks to keep the supply line full not only towards Southern Russian, but also to assault Leningrad draining resources from the defense of Moscow which I would be going after next.

Thoughts?

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Bret Hawkeye
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Send more Inf. in the first rounds. The Advantage of 2 moves is better for reserves which join the battles later. The primary forces can only move one country at a time in russia, since at least one Russian inf. will be there to block.

Also, if you want to move fast at Ukraine, use a small italian force to capture or empty out bessarabia or eastern poland in Turn 3, then German forces from Romania can strike/blitz at a (possibly) russian counterforce in Ukraine, which should unbalance the russian defense plan.
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William Maynard
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Do you think I should just use the same dollar amounts that i would use for Mech. Inf. and buy regular INF or use some of the money I would using for tanks to buy additional INF as well?

I also like the idea of a strike with Italy the turn before to help clear the road.
 
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Bret Hawkeye
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I once read about some "strike force / cannon fodder" co-efficient, were strike force would be all units except for Infantry, while infantry is the cannon fodder. But I most honestly say that I never really did the math there..

I remember something like "1 / 2" being the formula. meaning that you have two infantry for every expensive unit in you army. Be sure that Infantry numbers will dwindle fast enough as you proceed through russia - so I would consider this number not to be very conservative.

Also you might consider an IC in Rumania. A short supply route is always worth having, especially since any russian worth his salt would have built some ample defenses by turn 4.

--
Also you might toy with the idea to built some transport and one destroyer into SZ 100 - the black sea. The ships are safe, since UK cannot land in russia yet. You would put some pressure onto russia, since you can reach caucasus now very fast.

The destroyer serves only the purpose to prevent the russian from blocking your amphibious with a fast built submarine. - If I remember the rules correctly, a single Sub could prevent your offloading in that SZ, since your planes alone cannot force the sub to go underground. But someone might correct me there, If I err.
--

But thats just some Idea... but a Romanian IC would help nevertheless.
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Damo
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Komsi Hawkeye wrote:

especially since any russian worth his salt would have built some ample defenses by turn 4.


Da comrade. We have more men then you have bullets.
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Jan Ozimek
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Generally I think turn 4 is way too late. Turn 3 is the absolute latest I would attack, and more likely turn 2. That being said, I have some comments that apply anyway.

Komsi Hawkeye wrote:
I once read about some "strike force / cannon fodder" co-efficient, were strike force would be all units except for Infantry, while infantry is the cannon fodder. But I most honestly say that I never really did the math there..

I remember something like "1 / 2" being the formula. meaning that you have two infantry for every expensive unit in you army. Be sure that Infantry numbers will dwindle fast enough as you proceed through russia - so I would consider this number not to be very conservative.

Building regular inf for maximum staying power for the first 2-3 turns makes perfect sense. Add some artillery, as they also move only one space. They tend to take less attrition on the way to Moscow, so 3-5 PCS should be sufficient.
I don't know what the optimum mix is, but if you just spam all the Inf you can to begin with, you will be cool. when piled with the various Panzers and random other units you begin with, the stack will be immune to Russian counter attacks due to it's sheer size, regardless of the mix.

Komsi Hawkeye wrote:
Also you might consider an IC in Rumania. A short supply route is always worth having, especially since any russian worth his salt would have built some ample defenses by turn 4.

I think the setup change with a major IC in the Berlin territory has greatly reduced the viability of an IC in Romania. If I were to make an IC in the Balkans I would consider Yugoslavia as that enables Germany to produce ships in the Mediterranean.

Komsi Hawkeye wrote:
Also you might toy with the idea to built some transport and one destroyer into SZ 100 - the black sea. The ships are safe, since UK cannot land in russia yet. You would put some pressure onto russia, since you can reach caucasus now very fast.

The destroyer serves only the purpose to prevent the russian from blocking your amphibious with a fast built submarine. - If I remember the rules correctly, a single Sub could prevent your offloading in that SZ, since your planes alone cannot force the sub to go underground. But someone might correct me there, If I err.

Forget it. The Russians have air power, so you would have to build a rather large fleet or an Air base in an adjacent territory. Both seem like a waste of resources, but the AB being the better solution. If you do it with the AB, a Destroyer might still be called for due to subs; not because subs block movement, but because they could take out the transports at will during the Russian turn.
 
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Bret Hawkeye
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ozimek wrote:

Komsi Hawkeye wrote:
Also you might toy with the idea to built some transport and one destroyer into SZ 100 - the black sea. The ships are safe, since UK cannot land in russia yet. You would put some pressure onto russia, since you can reach caucasus now very fast.

The destroyer serves only the purpose to prevent the russian from blocking your amphibious with a fast built submarine. - If I remember the rules correctly, a single Sub could prevent your offloading in that SZ, since your planes alone cannot force the sub to go underground. But someone might correct me there, If I err.

Forget it. The Russians have air power, so you would have to build a rather large fleet or an Air base in an adjacent territory. Both seem like a waste of resources, but the AB being the better solution. If you do it with the AB, a Destroyer might still be called for due to subs; not because subs block movement, but because they could take out the transports at will during the Russian turn.


Not the way I see it. The fleet is save up until the turn you declare war on Russia. And if you dont want it to be an Kamikaze landing mission, you would have to build an AB into Romania on the turn you attack Russia.
 
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Political Hack
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I tend to agree that Turn 4 is too late to make the attack, unless you have some other plan for what you're doing in the meantime. The Soviets have too solid an economy in this build to wait that long, unless you're going for Sea Lion, or some other more creative strategy involving Italy?

Turn 2 or 3 seem to be the optimal times to make a push at the Soviets.

The idea of using Italy to make a strike at the Soviets to open a hole in the lines is an interesting one, if you go for a southern strategy. I just don't know if they have enough troops to be effective at it without sacrificing their aims in the Med, which I feel are crucial to overall success.
 
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Bret Hawkeye
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jmlease1 wrote:

The idea of using Italy to make a strike at the Soviets to open a hole in the lines is an interesting one, if you go for a southern strategy. I just don't know if they have enough troops to be effective at it without sacrificing their aims in the Med, which I feel are crucial to overall success.


If Germany doesnt attack Soviets straight out, then they have enough forces to clear the way for Italy, like:
- Capturing Yugoslavia, or attack en force and pull out to soften the defenders for a later Italian capture
- leave Bulgaria to Italy!!
- Capture southern France at G1 (with Tanks and Mech Inf through Northern Italy)
- use the Factory Southern France to help out Italy in the Meds - e.g. capture North Africa/Gibraltar

It might the blow that UK needs to make Sealion possible.

And I think you are right; without Sealion, waiting 3 turns to attack Russia is no good. Actually it should happen in the same turn. Some repeating landing and bombing on London in previous turns should make it possible... actually, it might be worth a try for myself (if I can gather the players for that).
 
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William Maynard
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I have always left Southern France for Italy to help boost there IPCs, since it is so low to start with.

Would you suggest German subs in the Med. or maybe air craft?

I have also always left Bulgaria to the Germans to help boost the number of German INF that I can throw against Russia.
 
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Jan Ozimek
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mdollarbill wrote:
I have always left Southern France for Italy to help boost there IPCs, since it is so low to start with.

Would you suggest German subs in the Med. or maybe air craft?
The problem with adding German surface ships to the Med is reaching critical mass. A small fleet is extremely vulnerable to Allied air raids. With the AB on Malta gone from the setup it is increasingly difficult to cover naval operations in the Med with air units. I think that makes subs an interesting option; They can be an effective deterrent for early US landings in Morocco, as they increase the staying power of a Luftwaffe attack on such a US fleet significantly. Problem is they likely won't do any convoy damage in the Med, and it is drawing away resources from Barbarossa.

mdollarbill wrote:
I have also always left Bulgaria to the Germans to help boost the number of German INF that I can throw against Russia.

I normally let the Germans have it, but I could see it would make sense to let the Italians get those infantry. Especially if you plan on using Italy as can opener on the eastern front.
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Political Hack
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mdollarbill wrote:
I have always left Southern France for Italy to help boost there IPCs, since it is so low to start with.

Would you suggest German subs in the Med. or maybe air craft?

I have also always left Bulgaria to the Germans to help boost the number of German INF that I can throw against Russia.


I agree with leaving Southern France for Italy; that's a really nice boost to their IPCs and helps them check the UK in the Med quite nicely.

I wouldn't send German subs down there, mostly because I always need them to deal with the British in the North Seas. Sending a fighter down to Italy is a great move on turn 1 to help defend the Italian fleet. Beyond that, I don't know how much else a few aircraft do.

Bulgaria is an interesting question. I can see good choices on that one for both sides
 
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