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Subject: 350 PPM End game condition rss

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Sonic Youps
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Hi all,

we played our first C02 game yesterday. First decade was tough as it's very difficult to understand impacts of each action but we got through and it was geeting better and better afterwards.

At the end of the third decade,the "350 ppm end game condition" and we all found that weird.
I explain :
- The pollution had risen to 380 ppm at the beggining of third decade. At that time Africa is full of power plant. On its last action of third decade, ona player replaced a coal power plant in africa. In effect this lowered the pollution to 340 triggering the end of the game as we understood it.
- Nobody had really foreseen that. we counted points and had a winner but as nobody expected the end of the game, it was really a lucky win (i guess that in future games, we'll anicipate this end and play it better but still...).

Questions :
- Did we do something wrong with the rules ?
- Don't you think this end-game condition will happen very (too) often as it is very likely that in decade 3 or 4, we'll be somewhere between 350 and 400, and at that time africa (oceania too in decade 4), will be full of power plants and therefore it's always possible to reduce pollution ?

Thks for your answers !

pascal
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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This condition gives you a certain control over the end of the game, which I like.
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Vital Lacerda
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This condition was created to add a more thematic meaning to the game, and as Thomas said it also gives you control over the end game, if you want to play a shorter game. But if you don't like that to happen, you can use it as a variant.
 
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Daba B.
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First of all, I would like to say this is a really great game. Had our first game yesterday and we did all the rules correctly. They are complex and require concentration, but esay to follow through. We were about to lose (490ppm), but we managed to decrease the CO2 level.

The question is:
-If the game is finished when in the operations Phase, CO2 level reaches below 350 ppm, how is it possible the point 1.3 Events in the rulebook. It says:
A.-If CO2 level is greater than 350ppm, a disaster occurs. Etc
B.-If CO2 level is in the safe zone (below 350ppm), then nothing happens.

How is it possible option B?
Shouldn´t the game be over as by the end of operating phase the level was under 350 ppm?
I don´t see how it is ever possible to apply option B during Events.
Can you help me? Thanks.
 
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John Weber
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Daba,

The CO 2 level has to reach 350 and go back down to trigger game end. Often, at the start of the second decade, the CO 2 level will rise but not hit 350, in which case no event occurs (Option B in the rules as you describe).
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Daba B.
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Thanks, John. I couldn´t find that in the rules. So option B will be played mostly only on the second decade, but not always.
A really difficult condition to declare, I think.
Thank you so much!!
 
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Dirk Mooren
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We faced exactly the same situation in our first game, and it left us kind of confused and disappointed. The game would have been over after only 45 minutes. Therefore, we decided to not count VPs, but to change the rule from "after the Actions Phase" to "after the Supply Phase", which added 60 minutes of playing time, and a lot of development and depth to the game. We are even thinking of completely ignoring this rule.
 
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Jeroen Harkes
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newrev wrote:
This condition was created to add a more thematic meaning to the game, and as Thomas said it also gives you control over the end game, if you want to play a shorter game. But if you don't like that to happen, you can use it as a variant.


Maybe a good compromise for a variant would be that the pollution should rise to 400 before going back down to 350. That way the end doesn't get triggered by just one power plant.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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minordemon wrote:

Maybe a good compromise for a variant would be that the pollution should rise to 400 before going back down to 350. That way the end doesn't get triggered by just one power plant.


No. There is a mistake in rulebook and I saw it to late.

The rule is:
Game is over at the end of the Operations phase: Of the 4th Decade if the global CO2 pollution level returns to the safe zone, under 350 ppm.

I'm scanning BGG right now to make a faq with all the doubts from players and I will include an errata in the beginning. It was my fault. I'm really sorry about it.

edit to change 'turn' to 'decade'.
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Jeroen Harkes
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newrev wrote:
No. There is a mistake in rulebook and I saw it to late.

Well at least it is consistent, it is wrong in all languages (that are published on the Giochix.it website).
 
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unkle
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newrev wrote:
minordemon wrote:

Maybe a good compromise for a variant would be that the pollution should rise to 400 before going back down to 350. That way the end doesn't get triggered by just one power plant.


No. There is a mistake in rulebook and I saw it to late.

The rule is:
Game is over at the end of the Operations phase: Of the 4th turn if the global CO2 pollution level returns to the safe zone, under 350 ppm.

I'm scanning BGG right now to make a faq with all the doubts from players and I will include an errata in the beginning. It was my fault. I'm really sorry about it.




Ah.

Weird. I thought it was pushing some interest over Africa here, which is really almost the only place to end the game turn 3... (though you could, if there is a fight for control in the 4 plants regions, get the end elsewhere).

Remember that triggering the end game has to be weighted on the fact that ending it without winning is just a plain silly move.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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minordemon wrote:

Well at least it is consistent, it is wrong in all languages (that are published on the Giochix.it website).


Yes, they were translated from the english rules.

Quote:
Remember that triggering the end game has to be weighted on the fact that ending it without winning is just a plain silly move.


Indeed, but it is to soon to end. Players don't have time to developed, their strategies and pollution will keep rising to dangerous levels and it is a suddenly end, that don't like very much. And even if you replace a power plant, does not mean that he game ends in the 4th Decade.

But of course, you may play as you like the most, and in this case, by the rules.
 
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unkle
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newrev wrote:

Indeed, but it is to soon to end. Players don't have time to developed, their strategies and pollution will keep rising to dangerous levels and it is a suddenly end, that don't like very much. And even if you replace a power plant, does not mean that he game ends in the 4th Decade.

But of course, you may play as you like the most, and in this case, by the rules.


No problem Vital, I'll adapt to play it the way it was thought. But after reading the rules, I thought immediately that depending on setup, that could make Africa a special place to be monitored, which I liked a lot... (given the fact that building/controling Africa is most of the times an action that does not give so many rewards, in terms of CEP at least).
 
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David Rosenberg
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newrev wrote:

The rule is:
Game is over at the end of the Operations phase: Of the 4th Decade if the global CO2 pollution level returns to the safe zone, under 350 ppm.


Just to be sure that I understood this correct: Do I check for this end of game-condition only at the end of the operations pase of the 4th decade? Or will any falling below 350 ppm in any round (1-4) trigger the end of the game at the end of the 4th decade?

Example: The level drops below 350 ppm in the 3rd decade and climbs back over 350 ppm until the end of the 4th decade. Will the game be over?

Thanks in advance! Great game!
 
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Vital Lacerda
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Thank you David.

Only at the end of the operations phase of the 4th decade.

Anyway, I don't see how CO2 levels could increase during operations phase. Once it drop down it will remain there until the supply phase of the following decade.
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David Rosenberg
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Thanks a lot for your quick response, Vital.

You are absolutely right that there is no way the level could increase during the operation phase. I just wasn't sure what would happen if the level fell below 350 at the end of the 3rd decade and would then raise back over 350 at the end of the 4th decade. As I understand it now, the game would go on as you only check this condition at the end of the 4th decade.

Thanks again for your help.
 
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Mike Stevens
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We just played our first game of CO2 tonight and it was a blast. We also had the game end early becasue the ppm went up to 380 after the first decade then back down to 340 after the 2nd decade.

So what you are saying is that should NOT have triggered the game end condition???? We hould have played till at least the end of the 4th decade. We were playing a 4-player game if that makes any difference.

Please get a FAQ out as soon as possible. We have already set a date to play this again on Friday night and I can't wait.
 
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David Rosenberg
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Hi Mike,

as I understood Vital's explanations, you should only check at the end of the 4th decade if the level is below 350 (and was higher before), which would end the game. This is the only situation which would trigger this end game condition.
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Brian M
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Ok, wanting more clarification on the clarification.

Is this supposed to be ONLY at the end of the 4th decade, and not at the end of later decades?

So, if you are playing a 5 player game, and it goes above 350, and then goes down below in the 5th decade, that does NOT end the game and you continue to the 6th decade?

This seems a very odd and somewhat arbitrary rule.
 
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Steve Duff
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StormKnight wrote:
Is this supposed to be ONLY at the end of the 4th decade, and not at the end of later decades?

So, if you are playing a 5 player game, and it goes above 350, and then goes down below in the 5th decade, that does NOT end the game and you continue to the 6th decade?


99% sure it applies to the 5th decade. It's just meant to stop the game from ending too early.

Since the game usually ends at the 5th anyway, I'm sure they just forgot the one case where it doesn't.
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Brian M
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Quote:
Since the game usually ends at the 5th anyway, I'm sure they just forgot the one case where it doesn't.

Or should it ONLY apply in the 5th decade in a 5 player game? I'm so confused!

So far, it seems like the 4 player game will normally end with this condition.
 
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Chris Linneman
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This sort of oversight begs the question: Why do publishers bother shipping games with rules at all? Why not direct purchasers to BGG, where the most updated rules version -- as verified by the designer -- can be downloaded. This way it is impossible to make the mistake of trusting that the rules match the designer's intended ruleset.

This is the second major rule that was omitted, the other being that endgame income applies to all players, regardless of relative positions on the expertise tracks.

shake
 
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