Korvin
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Variant: The Trojan Elephant


In many BSG games I played, I found two points quite annoying

1) How difficult the match is for the humans changes extremely if they have two presleeper or two postsleeper cylons.

2) Especially in PBF games with it's increased card counting very few hidden cylons dare to spike skill checks. Most cylons just play nice until a chance for a hard hit comes up and then reveal. But I think that hidden cylons with small sabotages here and there are much more fun for both sides. But revealed cylons are much more effective (with their strong cylon locations) than hidden cylons, which even have to help the humans to stay hidden.

Therefore I created a variant to solve these two problems. I would love to hear your critique.



Variant changes based on a BSG 6 player basegame:

1) First 4 YANAC + 2 YAAC are dealt to the players, afterwards everyone gets one YANAC (as a partial cover for Mugshots, ...). The player look at all their loyalty cards at the start of the game.

Reason: Avoiding the chance of a two postsleeper cylons game. There will be always two presleeper cylons, what should compensate for the 4 vs. 2 set up.


2) All discarded skill cards are mixed into destiny without showing them to the public.

Reason: Makes card counting pretty difficult and makes it easier for hidden cylons to lie about their cards. One of the biggest problems for a hidden cylons was always that a forced discard could show that the cylon had a card he claimed he wouldn't.


3) For all dice rolls for which a fail roll causes no negative effect (therefore no resource or Raptor is lost, ...) the following procedure is applied:
The rolling player is the only one seeing the dice. If it's a fail, he announces it without showing the dice and it counts as a fail. If it's a success, he can announce it as a success, show the dice and the success effect is taking place or he announces it as a fail without showing the dice and it counts as a fail.

Reason: In this way a cylon can manipulate some of his own actions (e.g. attack rolls) so that he doesn't have to help the humans.


4) Pegasus IC, Pegasus Caprica and Pegasus Human Fleet are used. The Human Fleet allows also revealed cylons to infiltrate back to Galactica. Infiltrated they are treated as humans (e.g. draw 5 skill cards, can play and be effected by skill cards, ...).

Reason: The Pegasus IC avoids too easy skill checks. The Peagsus Caprica weakens revealed cylons. The Pegasus Human Fleet makes it possible for cylons, who had to reveal (to escape from the brig), to come back to the fight on Galactica.


5) Mistrust token are introduced:
For every Morale point which is getting lost the President receives a Mistrust token and for every Population point the Admiral. If a Morale respective Population point is restored by any effect the President respective Admiral discards one Mistrust token. If a player has at least 2 Mistrust token and recceives another token, he has to give all his titles to the player(s) with a) the least Mistrust token and b) in the case of a tie of token to the player highest in the line of succession for this title.

Reason: This should mix the power distribution in the crew quite a bit and force a little bit more selfish play (the President will care more for Morale, while the Admiral will be more caring for the population).


6) If a player use a Launch Scout, he draws two cards of the crises or destination deck, puts one of them at the bottom of the deck and mix the other one together with the top two cards of the deck (thus the choosen card will be one of the three top cards of the deck).

Reason: With the original rules a Launch Scout basically could be only used pro-human or neutral. With the new rule a hidden cylon can hurt the humans.


7) Some smaller card changes

- Accept Prophecy: In addition to it's original effect, the President discards all his Mistrust token when this card is played. Discard Accept Prophecy if the President title is moved to another player.

- Assign Vice President: In addition to it's original effect, the target player has the highest position in line of succession for the President title. In addition he discards all his Mistrust token when this card is played. Discard this card after he received the President title.

- Encourage Mutiny: If the choosen player receives the Admiral title, he also discards all his Mistrust token.


- Research Lab: Action: draw one Tactic card or two Engineering cards.

Reason: The Research Lab is used very rarely.


- Repair: The repair of the location or Vipers is just happening on a dice roll of 3+.

Reason: In combination with the hidden dice roll rule it gives a hidden cylon the chance to avoid helping the humans.
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Robert Stewart
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One thing I'd want to check with these changes is whether all discards going to Destiny risks Destiny growing too quickly - it's probably not an issue, but it's the sort of thing where, say, one game in five one of the decks runs out completely. It's also potentially a lot of extra shuffling...
 
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Korvin
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Good point. Perhaps I will set a limit as "If the destiny deck reaches a size of 20(or 25?) cards, the top ten card will be discarded".
 
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Yarr Man
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I'm going point by point.

1. This change I can understand if it bothers someone. But the game is based on paranoia right? Part of it is that you don't know how many Cylons are in the game pre-sleeper (and with Exodus not 100% certain post sleeper since last Cylon card might be in the deck)

2. This is way too strong for unrevealed Cylons. Just spam all of your big Pilot,Tactics and engineering cards to the destiny deck.

4. Why would you infiltrate as Cylon? First of all, it makes thematically no sense whatsoever. Secondly, you'll just be brigged instantly.

5. Resources will always be lost, this would just guarantee that the titles just randomly change hands around all the time.

6. Cylons can already very effectively sabotage the Destination deck by claiming "This way they know one of the cards the Admiral chooses from" and leaving a bad Destination card to the top or just take out a very good jump card. It's not that bad of a change to 3 cards but I don't see the necessity

No opinion on others.
 
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Korvin
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Thanks for your comments

Philoman wrote:

1. This change I can understand if it bothers someone. But the game is based on paranoia right? Part of it is that you don't know how many Cylons are in the game pre-sleeper (and with Exodus not 100% certain post sleeper since last Cylon card might be in the deck)


- I know that it's not optimal, but I really don't like these games, in which either both cylons start hitting the humans at the start of the game and they don't even reach sleeper or in which two cylons just switch sides at distance 5 and have far too less time to stop the humans anymore. If you have a better solution, it would VERY welcome!


Philoman wrote:

2. This is way too strong for unrevealed Cylons. Just spam all of your big Pilot,Tactics and engineering cards to the destiny deck.


- Why should a cylon throw his high cards into destiny? Just for the chance that they come up just at the right crises? Ok, then it can't be tracked back to him, but compared with a direct spike it would be pretty much relying on a lucky destiny draw.


Philoman wrote:

4. Why would you infiltrate as Cylon? First of all, it makes thematically no sense whatsoever. Secondly, you'll just be brigged instantly.


- Why does it make thematically no sense? Another copy of the cylon is coming back to the fleet (e.g. like Cavil from Caprica). That it's pretty weak I agree. But I just wanted to give them the chance, if he wants to continue working with his buddy. But this point is not essential for me.


Philoman wrote:

5. Resources will always be lost, this would just guarantee that the titles just randomly change hands around all the time.


- Not randomly, along the line of succession. In the base game it's so that the line of succession for the Presidency is only important if the President reveals otherwise being the second in line doesn't help a bit.
But perhaps 3 Mistrust token for a change of command is really too fast and it should be increased to 4 Mistrust token?


Philoman wrote:

6. Cylons can already very effectively sabotage the Destination deck by claiming "This way they know one of the cards the Admiral chooses from" and leaving a bad Destination card to the top or just take out a very good jump card. It's not that bad of a change to 3 cards but I don't see the necessity


- Frankly I disagree. If a cylon leaves a 1-destination on top of the deck, at least the Admiral can be 100% sure that this player is a cylon. That's a pretty big risk in my eyes.
 
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Yarr Man
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Asahi wrote:
Thanks for your comments

- I know that it's not optimal, but I really don't like these games, in which either both cylons start hitting the humans at the start of the game and they don't even reach sleeper or in which two cylons just switch sides at distance 5 and have far too less time to stop the humans anymore. If you have a better solution, it would VERY welcome!


[q="Asahi"]
- Why should a cylon throw his high cards into destiny? Just for the chance that they come up just at the right crises? Ok, then it can't be tracked back to him, but compared with a direct spike it would be pretty much relying on a lucky destiny draw.

It's not really luck. Something like 80% (pulling this straight out of game experience, not calculation) of the Skill Checks in Crisis Cards have Piloting and Engineering as negative. Now when you also are playing positive cards into Skill Checks with Investigative Committee played you only have the cards that have small numbers. No one can really blame you if you put all of your cards in the Skill Check and it's still only 4 points total, while you discarded 3 cards worth of over 10 points into the Destiny deck.

It's way too strong for Cylons and there is no way to be caught.

Philoman wrote:

5. Resources will always be lost, this would just guarantee that the titles just randomly change hands around all the time.


Asahi wrote:

- Not randomly, along the line of succession. In the base game it's so that the line of succession for the Presidency is only important if the President reveals otherwise being the second in line doesn't help a bit.
But perhaps 3 Mistrust token for a change of command is really too fast and it should be increased to 4 Mistrust token?

But you WILL always lose at least 4 Population and 4 Morale during the course of the game, which guarantees at least one title change for both the admiral and the president. It just makes no sense for the President to become mistrusted because of a Crisis Choice that has "-2 Morale" or "-1 Morale and lose something else". There are already very good ways to see if the Admiral or the President is trustworthy, no need for other arbitrary measures that just complicate things for no reason.


Asahi wrote:

- Frankly I disagree. If a cylon leaves a 1-destination on top of the deck, at least the Admiral can be 100% sure that this player is a cylon. That's a pretty big risk in my eyes.

Yeah and what will the Admiral do in case the other card is another 1 Jump? He'll blaim the other guy for being a Cylon while the Cylon will say that he put a good Jump in there and the Admiral picked the other one instead. Or if there was a good Jump the Cylon will just congratulate the Admiral for choosing correctly.
If the Admiral makes a good Jump and then says the other guy is a Cylon for putting the other bad Jump in there, well it can just be a bluff as the Admiral was a Cylon himself. This will lead to the brigging of a human player who played Launch Scout.

So, no I'm still not convinced it's only pro human. Cylons can do nasty things whenever they play Launch Scout or if they're the Admiral and a human player plays it, they can be even nastier.
 
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Korvin
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Philoman wrote:

It's not really luck. Something like 80% (pulling this straight out of game experience, not calculation) of the Skill Checks in Crisis Cards have Piloting and Engineering as negative. Now when you also are playing positive cards into Skill Checks with Investigative Committee played you only have the cards that have small numbers. No one can really blame you if you put all of your cards in the Skill Check and it's still only 4 points total, while you discarded 3 cards worth of over 10 points into the Destiny deck.

It's way too strong for Cylons and there is no way to be caught.


I agree that if the high red and blue cards come up by destiny in a skill check the chances are quite high that they are negative. What I meant is that as a cylon I would like to have the control against which crises my good spike cards are used. There are always better and worse crises and I don't want my good cards wasted on a not really important crises.


Philoman wrote:

But you WILL always lose at least 4 Population and 4 Morale during the course of the game, which guarantees at least one title change for both the admiral and the president. It just makes no sense for the President to become mistrusted because of a Crisis Choice that has "-2 Morale" or "-1 Morale and lose something else". There are already very good ways to see if the Admiral or the President is trustworthy, no need for other arbitrary measures that just complicate things for no reason.


Yes, the titles will extremely likely change in this way at least one time their hands. But is this something bad (aside that it is quite thematically if you remember the tv show)?
I think I didn't explained my reasoning well enough:
1) Giving a player next in line a different way (either because he is a cylon or because he mistrust the title holder) than the pretty direct use of AQ or Administration to gain himself the title.
2) Giving the title holder a motivation for a little bit more selfish play (to hold as long as possible onto their title), what also can be used by cylons as cover.


Philoman wrote:

Yeah and what will the Admiral do in case the other card is another 1 Jump? He'll blaim the other guy for being a Cylon while the Cylon will say that he put a good Jump in there and the Admiral picked the other one instead. Or if there was a good Jump the Cylon will just congratulate the Admiral for choosing correctly.
If the Admiral makes a good Jump and then says the other guy is a Cylon for putting the other bad Jump in there, well it can just be a bluff as the Admiral was a Cylon himself. This will lead to the brigging of a human player who played Launch Scout.

So, no I'm still not convinced it's only pro human. Cylons can do nasty things whenever they play Launch Scout or if they're the Admiral and a human player plays it, they can be even nastier.


Ok, for destination the change of the Launch Scout rule wouldn't be totally necessary, but in my opinion it's still a slight improvement. I created this rule change mainly for the crises deck, where it's just boring that a cylon basically can't hurt the humans without getting caught (just waste the action).
 
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Yarr Man
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Asahi wrote:

I agree that if the high red and blue cards come up by destiny in a skill check the chances are quite high that they are negative. What I meant is that as a cylon I would like to have the control against which crises my good spike cards are used. There are always better and worse crises and I don't want my good cards wasted on a not really important crises.

Would you rather spike one targeted skill check and get caught or spike random skill checks (discard cards) and never get caught? I know what I'd do.
Asahi wrote:

Yes, the titles will extremely likely change in this way at least one time their hands. But is this something bad (aside that it is quite thematically if you remember the tv show)?

This takes away the whole aspect of making sure your major title holders being reliable since they're gonna change anyway. It also takes away the chance of say, a Cylon President sabotaging Morale since all they're doing is giving their title away.
It's also unthematical. Titles weren't changed around just because people were dying or the crew's morale got bad (you might argue that Tom Zarek's shortlived Admiralty was due to just that)

Asahi wrote:

Ok, for destination the change of the Launch Scout rule wouldn't be totally necessary, but in my opinion it's still a slight improvement. I created this rule change mainly for the crises deck, where it's just boring that a cylon basically can't hurt the humans without getting caught (just waste the action).

I see no problem with this. Seems fair enough.
 
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Philoman wrote:

Would you rather spike one targeted skill check and get caught or spike random skill checks (discard cards) and never get caught? I know what I'd do.


Since with my rule changes spiking a check without an IC will be quite possible, I would prefer to choose my sabotage target and don't get caught.

Philoman wrote:
This takes away the whole aspect of making sure your major title holders being reliable since they're gonna change anyway.


If the crew is really suspicious about a player, they still have their ways to rip him off his title. With this rule the power constellation in the crew gets more balanced.

Philoman wrote:
It also takes away the chance of say, a Cylon President sabotaging Morale since all they're doing is giving their title away.


That's more of an argument. I will think about it.

Philoman wrote:

It's also unthematical. Titles weren't changed around just because people were dying or the crew's morale got bad (you might argue that Tom Zarek's shortlived Admiralty was due to just that)


How often in a normal BSG base game does the Presidency change (if not by a revealing cylon)? In my experience perhaps once on average. The Admiral title perhaps more than once or two. How often did it change in the show? The changes in power were one of the most interesting parts in my opinion.
 
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Yarr Man
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Asahi wrote:

Since with my rule changes spiking a check without an IC will be quite possible, I would prefer to choose my sabotage target and don't get caught.

You're forgetting that people are not stupid. If there are more than 2 negative skill cards in the skill check someone is to blame. And if you have some of those negative colors in your skill card draw you're in the list.

For the mistrust thing I think I've exhausted my position. If you like more radical title changes around you can pursue this variant, but it's not for me.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Philoman wrote:
Asahi wrote:
I agree that if the high red and blue cards come up by destiny in a skill check the chances are quite high that they are negative. What I meant is that as a cylon I would like to have the control against which crises my good spike cards are used. There are always better and worse crises and I don't want my good cards wasted on a not really important crises.
Would you rather spike one targeted skill check and get caught or spike random skill checks (discard cards) and never get caught? I know what I'd do.


I'd like to be playing with people who wouldn't notice the fourth and fifth piloting cards coming out of Destiny - or who would blame them on someone other than the only pilot...

Or, of course, if the checks aren't Investigated, then it's "Oh look, the pilot played into a check which got spiked with piloting cards"

I can't help but feel that you're underestimating your players if you think they're not going to make the connection between "there sure are a lot of big piloting cards turning up in skill checks" and "one of the pilots must be a Cylon"...
 
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Korvin
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Philoman wrote:

You're forgetting that people are not stupid. If there are more than 2 negative skill cards in the skill check someone is to blame. And if you have some of those negative colors in your skill card draw you're in the list.


Yes, there is a chance. Yes, the humans can find you. But it's still better in my opinion to spike a check for which I can consider the gain-risk rate, than just throw it into destiny, where it will be perhaps stuck forever and then can come up on whatever crises (e.g. a crises which gets tanked by the humans).
And the human player will discard low cards into destiny. So you few high cards will be pretty diluted.
 
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Jeremy Fredin
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Asahi wrote:
1) First 4 YANAC + 2 YAAC are dealt to the players, afterwards everyone gets one YANAC (as a partial cover for Mugshots, ...). The player look at all their loyalty cards at the start of the game.

Reason: Avoiding the chance of a two postsleeper cylons game. There will be always two presleeper cylons, what should compensate for the 4 vs. 2 set up.


Any sour feelings from a recent game? ;)
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Yarr Man
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rmsgrey wrote:

I can't help but feel that you're underestimating your players if you think they're not going to make the connection between "there sure are a lot of big piloting cards turning up in skill checks" and "one of the pilots must be a Cylon"...

If you're an engineer and you draw at least one politics, that's when you'll put one small politics card in the discard and one big engineering or pilotng card there too. There only needs to be a few discards after the destiny deck gets so shuffled up that you can't really tell if someone's sabotaging it or not.

Though on the flipside, it just might make the game too easy for humans. Since what are you mostly discarding? 1 and 2 strength cards right? Even if they come up as negative they're better than what would come up randomly. So in the end is this actually gonna benefit humans more?

Edit: I'm gonna actually try this variant in our next game to see what really happens. Making the Destiny deck more "random" as in harder to calculate is something to be sought after.
 
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Korvin
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ArcherAve wrote:
Asahi wrote:
1) First 4 YANAC + 2 YAAC are dealt to the players, afterwards everyone gets one YANAC (as a partial cover for Mugshots, ...). The player look at all their loyalty cards at the start of the game.

Reason: Avoiding the chance of a two postsleeper cylons game. There will be always two presleeper cylons, what should compensate for the 4 vs. 2 set up.


Any sour feelings from a recent game?


Yes, our running game is a good example how it gets too easy (or in other cases too hard) for the humans, depending on the number of post-/pre-sleeper cylons. Of course it still has interesting moments, but I like the tension of a tight game much more.
 
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Philoman wrote:

Though on the flipside, it just might make the game too easy for humans. Since what are you mostly discarding? 1 and 2 strength cards right? Even if they come up as negative they're better than what would come up randomly. So in the end is this actually gonna benefit humans more?


Yes, this point of diluting the destiny was also found by another player I showed the variant. And I agree. But I think it's worth it, if it covers the cylons asses against unlucky (random) discards. Perhaps I should combine this concerns together with the problem mentioned by Robert about getting the destiny deck too large. Something like:
"If the destiny deck reaches a size of 20(?) the deck is discarded and a new deck is build"
It's a bit more work perhaps for rebuilding the deck, but it 1) avoids too large destiny decks, 2) stops dilution with low cards and 3) if a cylon dumps his high cards into it to "spike" checks the chances are there that it will never make it into a check. What do you think?
 
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Korvin
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rmsgrey wrote:

I'd like to be playing with people who wouldn't notice the fourth and fifth piloting cards coming out of Destiny - or who would blame them on someone other than the only pilot...

Or, of course, if the checks aren't Investigated, then it's "Oh look, the pilot played into a check which got spiked with piloting cards"

I can't help but feel that you're underestimating your players if you think they're not going to make the connection between "there sure are a lot of big piloting cards turning up in skill checks" and "one of the pilots must be a Cylon"...


Yes, that some colours (red & blue) are just in the hands of very few people makes it quite difficult to spike with them. Of course this has to be in some way otherwise the humans would have extremely bad chances to find the hidden cylons anyway.
I was already thinking of a way that players can get also once in a time a card outside their usual colours, but am still looking for a good one. My idea was:
"At the start of each players turn the current player draws his normal five cards plus the top card of the destiny deck. Then he chooses one of these cards and mix it into the destiny deck."
This would of course lead to even more dilution of the destiny with low cards, but would give a very limited uncertainty if a player could have gotten a card outside his colours. As I said, I'm not really happy with this rule (therefore I removed it from this variant), but liked the idea that in a quite limited chance it can't be excluded that a player got his hands on a colour used to spike a check. Anyone an idea in this direction
 
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Yarr Man
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Asahi wrote:

"If the destiny deck reaches a size of 20(?) the deck is discarded and a new deck is build"

I don't think this is ever gonna be a problem. Skill checks happen almost every turn, sometimes twice a turn and discards happen much more rarely. So I don't think you have to worry about this.
 
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M. B. Downey
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Philoman wrote:
Something like 80% (pulling this straight out of game experience, not calculation) of the Skill Checks in Crisis Cards have Piloting and Engineering as negative.


Including current player chooses and not counting super crises...

42 skill check crises in the Base Game

32 red negative (76%)
32 blue negative (76%)
26 red and blue negative (62%)

53 skill check crises in Pegasus + Base Game

41 red negative (77%)
41 blue negative (77%)
33 red and blue negative (62%)

65 skill check crises in Exodus + Base Game

50 red negative (77%)
44 blue negative (68%)
37 red and blue negative (57%)

76 skill check crises in Pegasus + Exodus + Base Game

59 red negative (78%)
53 blue negative (70%)
44 red and blue negative (58%)

For comparison, the other numbers are:

Base Only (42)

19 yellow negative (45%)
16 green negative (38%)
13 purple negative (31%)

Pegasus and Base (53)

21 yellow negative (40%)
17 green negative (32%)
19 purple negative (36%)

Exodus and Base (65)

29 yellow negative (45%)
24 green negative (37%)
21 purple negative (32%)

Pegasus and Exodus and Base (76)

31 yellow negative (41%)
25 green negative (33%)
27 purple negative (36%)
 
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Korvin
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Thanks for the statistics. I didn't know e.g. that with Pegasus Leadership is again the most useful skill check colour.

Philoman wrote:
Asahi wrote:

"If the destiny deck reaches a size of 20(?) the deck is discarded and a new deck is build"

I don't think this is ever gonna be a problem. Skill checks happen almost every turn, sometimes twice a turn and discards happen much more rarely. So I don't think you have to worry about this.


I just counted and yes there are ca. 40 skill check crises (plus skill check from AQ and Administration) against ca. 25 crises with discards. But the the discards are most of the time more than 2 cards (plus discards from moving between Galactica and C1 and discards due to the hand limit). The ratio is not as drastically as you said, but your conclusion is right.
 
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Christian Yorck
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Comments on your variants:
1) a alternative for a no Sympathisant Variant. I like the idea. Should try this.
2) A similar idea I also have. But I don't like and I would not discard into the destiny. I just would discard secretly on a seperate discard pile. If one pile of skill card is empty, you shuffle the secret discard pile and then sort all skill cards to the correct piles.
3) This doesn't work. Everybody who does so, say it is a fail and does show the result is a cylon! Your variant doesn't work!
4) I don't understand what you mean with Pegasus IC and Pegasus Caprica, what do want to do with them? And why should a normal revealed cylon infiltrate? He will lose a round doing so.
5) See other post. Same and similar opinion.
6) Scout: Do not draw two destination card, it much over powered. Two crisis cards could be fine. Worth thinking about.
 
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Yarr Man
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Ok we were gonna try the discard to Destiny thing but I was convinced otherwise by another player. Discards are a very valuable and one of the only ways for players to gather reliable information. If you take that away, it really becomes more a game of luck than determination of who's the Cylon.
If you're forced to discard a card that you said you didn't have, that's really just bad play from you, not the game's fault.
 
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Borbarad wrote:

2) A similar idea I also have. But I don't like and I would not discard into the destiny. I just would discard secretly on a seperate discard pile. If one pile of skill card is empty, you shuffle the secret discard pile and then sort all skill cards to the correct piles.


An interesting idea.

Borbarad wrote:

3) This doesn't work. Everybody who does so, say it is a fail and does show the result is a cylon! Your variant doesn't work!


- I guess you misunderstood the rule: You show the dice just, if it is a success and you want to count it as a success (as a human or as a cylon, who wants to earn trust). If it's a fail or it's a success and you claim it's a fail, you never show the dice.

Borbarad wrote:

4) I don't understand what you mean with Pegasus IC and Pegasus Caprica, what do want to do with them? And why should a normal revealed cylon infiltrate? He will lose a round doing so.


- Pegasus IC: The IC doesn't show the destiny cards. With the base version IC skill checks are much easier

- Pegasus Caprica: The jump prep step is NOT ignored as in the base version.

- Why should he infiltrate back? Because he and his perhaps still hidden buddy can cause more damage on Galactica than with the cylon locations (this would be great for me, because a fight on Galactica is much more interesting than just using the cylon location). It most situations coming back to Galactica is probably still not attractive enough (perhaps I will find a way to change this), but it's just an option for some situations.


Borbarad wrote:

6) Scout: Do not draw two destination card, it much over powered. Two crisis cards could be fine. Worth thinking about.


- Ok, I agree.
 
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Korvin
Germany
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Philoman wrote:

If you're forced to discard a card that you said you didn't have, that's really just bad play from you, not the game's fault.


How can it be bad play of the cylon if a randomly drawn crises forces him to discard a card he claimed he hadn't? The only way to avoid this for sure is never to lie.
 
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Yarr Man
Finland
Turku
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Asahi wrote:

How can it be bad play of the cylon if a randomly drawn crises forces him to discard a card he claimed he hadn't? The only way to avoid this for sure is never to lie.

You're taking a risk by saying you don't have it. You could reason your way around it. Usually it's a situation where someone would like to receive an "Executive Order" and you instead do something else. Don't even claim that you don't have the card.
And so far this claiming you didn't have a card then are forced to discard that exact card has only happened once (very recently) during all of our games.
 
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