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Subject: End of the action phase rss

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Roger Hedgehog
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About the end of the action phase, the rule says: "Players continue playing rounds until all players have used up their action discs or cannot play anything".

My question is: when all players have used their action discs, does the action phase end immediatly (*) or do players have the opportunity to play additional rounds to used still available buildings and cards ?

Thanks in advance

(*) Even if the last disc has been used by a player who isn't the last in the order of play.
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Stephane Bassiaux
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If I'm not mistaken, using markets, harbors, etc. and playing cards has to be done in addition to using an action disk (1 AD + 1 building + 1 card max per round), so, if you're out of discs, you have to pass and let the other ones play their last discs and actions.

You cannot play additional cards and buildings if you used all your discs.

Basically, the answer to your question is : Yes

Unless someone else takes the last exploration token from a pile, then everyone immediately gets an extra action.
 
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Jimmy Okolica
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Wraith75 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, using markets, harbors, etc. and playing cards has to be done in addition to using an action disk (1 AD + 1 building + 1 card max per round), so, if you're out of discs, you have to pass and let the other ones play their last discs and actions.

You cannot play additional cards and buildings if you used all your discs.

Basically, the answer to your question is : Yes

Unless someone else takes the last exploration token from a pile, then everyone immediately gets an extra action.


IIRC, this isn't correct. I can't find the thread, but I thought I remembered reading that you can use the market and/or ports even if you're out of action disks. If I come across it again, i'll come back and link to it.
 
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Stephane Bassiaux
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Oh, you're right, I'm wrong

Question 4 from the FAQ :

"4) Can I use a building or a card if I no longer have action disc (because used to activate a
card)? Yes, using a building or a card is in addition to the normal action of the turn and nothing
says you can not use these additional benefits if you have no action disc."

Sorry for the confusion modest
 
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Tim Kieritz
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Does that mean the phase doesn't end when nobody has any action disk left?

Can I use all of my markets/harbors or can I only use my buildings until everybody has run out of action disks?
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X Shrike
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What I want to know is if you must take an action.

I am think of Chaos in the Old World. You don't have to preform an action in the Summoning phase when it is your turn but, if you pass you forfeit the rest of that phase of the round.
 
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Olivier D.
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some answers :

1) Phase 5 end at the end of the round (ie 1 player's action + card use+ building use) when the last action disc has been spent.

2) If you have any action disc left, you *have* to play a colony action(or spend your last discs to activate a card before having to play a colony action).

3) You may still use a building and/or activate a card when the round comes back to you and you have no action disc left (unless everyone have spent their discs -see 1)). Declining to use a building/card will not prevent you from using a building/card if the round comes back to you again.

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Roger Hedgehog
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Thanks for your answers.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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mildaene wrote:
1) Phase 5 end at the end of the round (ie 1 player's action + card use+ building use) when the last action disc has been spent.

This seems to contradict the English rules. What is your answer based on?
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Ben Skellett
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This is a good question, Roger.

I just played the game for the first time & this was my one outstanding question that I couldn't find a definitive answer to.

I was sure someone else must have asked the same thing but I couldn't find anything official. I agreed with Curt & Roger that the English rules say Phase 5 continues until all players "have used up their action discs or cannot play anything".

Olivier's answer above annoyed me (no offence Olivier) because it means the "or cannot play anything" part is unnecessary and incorrect, and his answer implied that in Phase 5 each player can only activate at most as many cards as they have action discs, and I had a lot more cards than action discs in the game we just played. Also this seemed to make question 4 in the FAQ redundant where the answer states, "Yes, using a building or a card is in addition to the normal action of the turn and nothing says you can not use these additional benefits if you have no action disc."

Still confused, I've spent the last few hours using Google Translate on the Tric Trac forums & found a post from Christophe here: http://trictrac.net/jeux/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112524&highli... (the timestamp of the post is Sep 30, 2012 1:15)

This post from the designer agrees with what Olivier said and I now understand that question 4 in the FAQ was specifically asking about the situation where a player spent more than one action disc on a previous round in the current phase ("to activate a card").

So, I now take Olivier's answers as correct & the implications of those are that each player will use at most as many cards as they have actions discs and that Phase 5 will definitely end once the last action disc has been spent (which will probably be by the last player in turn order unless players have been using their discs on cards). The only way a player could take an action without an action disc (i.e. use a building or card) is if at least one player still has an action disc left.

I'd be very interested if anyone can explain why the "or cannot play anything" part of that sentence exists.
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Curt Carpenter
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hxbx wrote:
I'd be very interested if anyone can explain why the "or cannot play anything" part of that sentence exists.

After thinking about this more, reading more, and playing more, I think it's just laziness in rules writing and/or translating. The sentence is so poorly written that even if the opposite ruling were made, the printed rule would still be terrible, as the "all players have used up their action discs or..." part would then be superfluous/contradictory/confusing. It would also beg the question of whether a player is forced to use a card, even if it is their only available remaining option. There is no mention of passing.
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Kent
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hxbx wrote:
This is a good question, Roger.
I'd be very interested if anyone can explain why the "or cannot play anything" part of that sentence exists.


My best guess is that the intended phrasing may have been "or cannot play an action disc." Theoretically, a situation may occur where all permissible action spaces on the colony board have been taken. Thus, one "cannot play anything."
 
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Curt Carpenter
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icarusmustburn wrote:
My best guess is that the intended phrasing may have been "or cannot play an action disc." Theoretically, a situation may occur where all permissible action spaces on the colony board have been taken. Thus, one "cannot play anything."

How is that theoretically possible? There are many spaces that are unlimited.
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Kent
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curtc wrote:
icarusmustburn wrote:
My best guess is that the intended phrasing may have been "or cannot play an action disc." Theoretically, a situation may occur where all permissible action spaces on the colony board have been taken. Thus, one "cannot play anything."

How is that theoretically possible? There are many spaces that are unlimited.


If your workers are in rebellion, you would not be able to harvest, or perhaps other players control the tiles, etc. Other similar constraints could prevent other actions. Unlikely, but not impossible to be unable to use your last disc or two late in the game with 4 or 5 action discs per player and poor planning in a 4 or 5 player game.

Just a thought.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Isn't it legal to go on any harvest space, even if you harvest zero resources?
 
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Kent
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curtc wrote:
Isn't it legal to go on any harvest space, even if you harvest zero resources?


Great question. The rules state:

rules wrote:
each player plays one round by placing one of his action discs (AD) on the action wheel and performing the corresponding action.


And for Harvest:

Quote:
Choose a resource to harvest. The active player deploys as many active, non-engaged units across the entire archipelago as desired in unoccupied resource icons of that type, one unit per icon.


Some of the wording may imply the action is optional, but other portions of the rules emphasize the need to execute the action and for active citizens.

I will review the rules and other threads where the designer has chimed in to see if he addressed whether the action must be executed if the action disc is placed.

EDIT: I did not find a clarification. As I have found several questions that have not been answered explicitly or that have contradictory answers posted, I will post a new thread and try to get the designer to chime in.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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My question was more rhetorical. The rule you quoted is clear. Execution of the action is not optional, it's required. But the number of good harvested could be zero, if that's the number of "active, non-engaged units across the entire archipelago in unoccupied resource icons of that type".
 
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Kent
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curtc wrote:
My question was more rhetorical. The rule you quoted is clear. Execution of the action is not optional, it's required. But the number of good harvested could be zero, if that's the number of "active, non-engaged units across the entire archipelago in unoccupied resource icons of that type".


The rest of the sentence that precedes your excerpt and the remainder would seem to imply that a value of zero is not allowed:

rules wrote:
The active player deploys as many active, non-engaged units across the entire archipelago as desired on unoccupied resource icons of that type, one unit per icon.


The coupling of the clauses is ambiguous at best, but seems to discourage the validity of zero as the number of units. Can one deploy zero units?

Ambiguous, IMO. Needs some clarification by the designer with a blanket declaration of mandatory or optional execution of a chosen action, or the criteria to choose an action being mandatory or optional versus executing an action.

EDIT: Other actions do place constraints on their use, because otherwise their requirements would be ambiguous. The references to what happens to units participating in the action for Harvest would seem to eliminate the possibility of using it as a throwaway action with no effect, i.e. the explicit references to resource cubes harvested and resource icons occupied by active non-engaged citizens (or ships for fish).
 
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Curt Carpenter
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icarusmustburn wrote:
The rest of the sentence that precedes your excerpt and the remainder would seem to imply that a value of zero is not allowed:

rules wrote:
The active player deploys as many active, non-engaged units across the entire archipelago as desired on unoccupied resource icons of that type, one unit per icon.

The coupling of the clauses is ambiguous at best, but seems to discourage the validity of zero as the number of units. Can one deploy zero units?

Why not? Is zero no longer a number? surprise

icarusmustburn wrote:
Needs some clarification by the designer with a blanket declaration of mandatory or optional execution of a chosen action, or the criteria to choose an action being mandatory or optional versus executing an action.

I don't understand what ruling you're expecting. Whether or not someone doesn't use their action because they have no valid action, or because the only valid actions produce no results is a theoretical question at best, right? Clearly no one wants to throw away an action. This whole discussion started merely as a way to potentially justify a poorly written rule, but one that we all understand, right? Or maybe I'm now confused.

icarusmustburn wrote:
Other actions do place constraints on their use, because otherwise their requirements would be ambiguous. The references to what happens to units participating in the action for Harvest would seem to eliminate the possibility of using it as a throwaway action with no effect, i.e. the explicit references to resource cubes harvested and resource icons occupied by active non-engaged citizens (or ships for fish).

I don't follow that. Again, zero is a number, both of units and cubes. Migration could also be done moving zero units. Recruitment could be done purchasing zero workers.
 
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Kent
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My answers were meant to imagine a scenario applicable to the rule text "or cannot play anything."

My take on that phrase is that one situation where a player "cannot play anything" is when all available slots on the colony board have been occupied in the limited action zones and the current player has zero active non-engaged workers available to perform any of the unlimited actions zone actions.

I disagree that zero makes any semantic sense when applied to actions. It just flies against the theme of the game IMO.

The rules go to great lengths to define and to refer to active citizens versus rebels, and the number and type needed to perform an action, along with their disposition after taking the action. This, to my reading, implies non-zero workers, but the rules fail to state this explicitly.

To my reading, if I am required to place an action disc and to perform an action that requires workers, then I must have workers available, and actions cannot be performed with no visible effect. To interpret otherwise feels synthetic and lacking theme in a game heavily laden with theme. The rules never allude to this possibility in my reading.

So my questions to the designer are simple:

(1) When taking an action that requires active non-engaged citizens, must at least one such citizen be available for the action, or can "zero" citizens be used to allow play of an action disc to no visible effect.

(2) Can a situation arise where one or more players "cannot play anything" due to the above constraint on needing active non-engaged workers to take actions, with the result that the turn must end with unplayed action discs.
 
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Kent
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curtc wrote:
I don't follow that. Again, zero is a number, both of units and cubes. Migration could also be done moving zero units. Recruitment could be done purchasing zero workers.


Negative one is also a number, but I think we can both agree that it's use would be a silly twisting of the rules.
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Chris Boelinger
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Hello,
Didn't have the time to read all posts.
But here are my answers to clarify:
If you still have at least one action disc you have to play it. You cannot pass on that.
The phase 5 keeps on going until no player has anymore action disc. Then it's directly to phase 6.
But if you have used some actions on cards then you could be in advance compared to the other players, then and only in those situations you might get another round with no action disc to spend, that's when nothing prevents you from using a port or market and/or a card.
Simple as that
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Eoin Corrigan
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Thanks, Chris, for the elaboration. A further request.

Let's say I have one evolution card I can use during my round. I have three action discs and I am the first player in a three player game. During my first three rounds, I decline to use my evolution card. After the third player has used his or her third action disc, could I then use my evolution card?
 
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Curt Carpenter
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If no one has any remaining action discs, the round is over.
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Kent
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Answers from the designer via PM:

icarusmustburn wrote:
(1) When taking an action that requires active non-engaged citizens, must at least one such citizen be available for the action, or can "zero" citizens be used to allow play of an action disc to no visible effect.

Chris Boelinger wrote:
I guess you could place your disc on this action and trigger no effect. It wouldn't hurt the games
I can only see no case where someone would want to do that or few bad playing cases where you got locked by rebellion where this could be triggered. Never seen anybody want to do that. You can always use your boats, explore, recruit, fish, tax, do transactions...


(2) Can a situation arise where one or more players "cannot play anything" due to the above constraint on needing active non-engaged workers to take actions, with the result that the turn must end with unplayed action discs.

Chris Boelinger wrote:
It can probably happen in the worst situation a player should almost cp voluntarily put himself into, or after a very very bad crisis for him...
As I said above, never seen or maybe once, and they used their boats tothe max, failed some explorations, got very low taxes, just for the boats and buildings occupied like temples, made one or two transactions, no need of any citizen available.

If you want to copy paste those answers wherever they are needed, feel free to do so.




Per the answer to (1) it would appear that an action disc may be placed, if prerequisites have been met, but then the player may choose to "pass" on execution of the action. This answer did not exactly match the intent of the question, however.

Per the answer to (2) it would appear that a turn can theoretically end with unplayed action discs, due to a lack of prerequisites to play them, which may occur in very specific but unlikely game situations.

Another round of Q&A might help to clear things up a bit more.
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