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Subject: The Up Front Kickstarter summary thread rss

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Aaron Lewicki
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So, here's what I've heard so far. I'm not making any assumptions about the validity of any of these comments, just trying to summarize the issues raised so far.

1) Licensing: it's not clear whether VG/RG actually has the rights to create a UF re-print/update. WotC/Hasbro has some possible claim to them, and its unclear whether VG/RG has actually gotten the approval of Hasbro to publish the game. Previous attempts to work with WotC/Hasbro for the rights to re-print were not successful.

2) Lawsuits: VG currently has legal action pending against it (not including any from Hasbro) which would potentially have a severe impact on the company.

3) Publisher: The game is being listed as being published by Radiant Games on the KS page, but RG's website is a GoDaddy advertisement page, and previous games credited to Rik (the project creator) were published (and are still sold by) Valley Games.

4) Some of the art shown in the VG/RG videos is copyrighted. It is unclear what the new art will be at this time.

5) There are new rules being proposed, but they seem to still be under development during the KS. It is not clear if they were play tested, or by whom. There is no (un)official copy of the proposed rule book published to this point.

6) The game is being sold in a fashion that seems to be overly expensive (based on comments) for the base game. Promises of future expansions are planned, and "name a character" amounts are in the hundreds of dollars (common for KS rewards).

VG has produced quality re-prints in the past, and having UF back in circulation would be a great thing (I own, and love, the original). But I have a hard time pledging money given these issues, both from a solvency perspective, and from a morality perspective. After thoroughly reviewing KS' business model, it seems that once they have your money, its just an act of faith that you'll get anything for it.

Until Rik addresses these issues, I'm having trouble taking this KS seriously.
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Ron
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Thanks for the warning. Given the price of that KS, I'll bail out here.
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Todd
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If you back at the $125 level, you get $188 in product with shipping paid. That's about a 33% discount according to the suggested price contained within the Kickstarter comments and not including the stretch rewards with will likely see the light of day at FLGS in the future.

Not trying to convince you to pledge, but just saying that the pledge price is about the same as the online store price.

Now all the speculation about VG and Radiant Games, etc is another thing.

Maus
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Chris Miller
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Maximillion wrote:
...

3) Publisher: The game is being listed as being published by Radiant Games on the KS page, but RG's website is a GoDaddy advertisement page, and previous games credited to Rik (the project creator) were published (and are still sold by) Valley Games.


For what it's worth I'll add that when the kickstarter project started it showed valleygames.ca as the homepage. That was recently changed to radiantgaming.com. Radiantgaming.com is registered to the name of Valley Game's president and their Canadian street address.
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Jonathan Harrison
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MillertimeRC wrote:
Maximillion wrote:
...

3) Publisher: The game is being listed as being published by Radiant Games on the KS page, but RG's website is a GoDaddy advertisement page, and previous games credited to Rik (the project creator) were published (and are still sold by) Valley Games.

For what it's worth I'll add that when the kickstarter project started it showed valleygames.ca as the homepage. That was recently changed to radiantgaming.com. Radiantgaming.com is registered to the name of Valley Game's president and their Canadian street address.

Then changing their listed website to a parked domain was stupid. What reason would you have—other than (1) trying to shake off legal liability or (2) gross incompetence—for redirecting a working URL, during a live Kickstarter campaign, to a parked one?
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Man, how do you keep up with all those tabs?
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Jonathan Harrison
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Verkisto wrote:
Man, how do you keep up with all those tabs?

I train for it by playing wargames.
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Hugh G. Rection
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
I train for it by playing wargames.


Gary Grigsby games, perhaps?
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Jonathan Harrison
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ldsdbomber wrote:
he has to open so many so that he can hide the tab names that might get him into hot water

Yes, and they're all BGG Marketplace listings I'm considering! laugh
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Roar Stensrud
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Maximillion wrote:

1) Licensing: it's not clear whether VG/RG actually has the rights to create a UF re-print/update. WotC/Hasbro has some possible claim to them, and its unclear whether VG/RG has actually gotten the approval of Hasbro to publish the game. Previous attempts to work with WotC/Hasbro for the rights to re-print were not successful.


With the original designer of the game, Coutney Allen, on the team, I bet this is no issue. I sincerely doubt that Allen would take any part in this if the Licensing haden't been sorted out.

Maximillion wrote:

4) Some of the art shown in the VG/RG videos is copyrighted. It is unclear what the new art will be at this time.


Again:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/864292/ron-volstad-to-do...

Maximillion wrote:

5) There are new rules being proposed, but they seem to still be under development during the KS. It is not clear if they were play tested, or by whom. There is no (un)official copy of the proposed rule book published to this point.


Not exactly too many new rules, i believe. Only streamlining and slight changes:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/884458/up-front-a-author...

R.
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Shane Brewer
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I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.
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Charlie Theel
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stroar wrote:

With the original designer of the game, Coutney Allen, on the team, I bet this is no issue. I sincerely doubt that Allen would take any part in this if the Licensing haden't been sorted out.


Richard Hamblen made that mistake with Merchant of Venus.
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Mark J
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Maximillion wrote:

5) There are new rules being proposed, but they seem to still be under development during the KS. It is not clear if they were play tested, or by whom. There is no (un)official copy of the proposed rule book published to this point.


Well yeah... why would a project be totally completed prior to a Kickstarter campaign? There is an (authorized) kickstarter thread around here where the re-print team suggest they have been play testing the rules. Re-writing the rule book is going to be a monumental task, especially when you here specifics on the expanded/advanced rule book. So having nothing published so far is no surprise. But who ever wonders about the rule book before buying a game? Are you maybe stretching for reasons not to support this?

Granted some of your reasons are valid.

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Chris Miller
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DiploGuy wrote:

...
But who ever wonders about the rule book before buying a game?

...


If you go back through some of the more recent Kickstarter projects you'll see this is a very frequent concern. I don't know how much concern there should be there on a rewrite versus a new game, but people will definitely want to know how much different this will be than the original version, for a variety of reasons.

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Joel Eddy
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I think this issue and other recent Kickstarter issues, have moved me to the stance of, "I will let others back the projects. If they are good enough, I will be able to get a hold of the game via my OLGS. If not, they aren't good enough."
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7) I will sue my wife, given the correct circumstance.
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David Hoffman
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eekamouse wrote:
I think this issue and other recent Kickstarter issues, have moved me to the stance of, "I will let others back the projects. If they are good enough, I will be able to get a hold of the game via my OLGS. If not, they aren't good enough."


Blaming Kickstarter for this is sort of like blaming the movie theater for the movie sucking. It's not Kickstarter's fault and there are plenty of good games put up by good companies -- too many, in fact, to let a couple rotten apples spoil the whole Kickstarter thing for you.

I look at it as a question of risk, and I look at it on an individual basis. And I think the BGG community is INVALUABLE in helping me assess that risk. Yes, you can get bitten by an inexperienced company biting off more than they can reasonably chew, but when you've got a company with a clear and verifiable history to call on, when you see the red flags going up, that's when you back away (or, roll the dice and hope for the best).
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Joel Eddy
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ohbalto wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
I think this issue and other recent Kickstarter issues, have moved me to the stance of, "I will let others back the projects. If they are good enough, I will be able to get a hold of the game via my OLGS. If not, they aren't good enough."


Blaming Kickstarter for this is sort of like blaming the movie theater for the movie sucking. It's not Kickstarter's fault and there are plenty of good games put up by good companies -- too many, in fact, to let a couple rotten apples spoil the whole Kickstarter thing for you.

I look at it as a question of risk, and I look at it on an individual basis. And I think the BGG community is INVALUABLE in helping me assess that risk. Yes, you can get bitten by an inexperienced company biting off more than they can reasonably chew, but when you've got a company with a clear and verifiable history to call on, when you see the red flags going up, that's when you back away (or, roll the dice and hope for the best).


I'm not assessing blame. I'm blaming a bunch of recent crap games (and stupid crap like this), when I can get great games from existing companies that don't use Kickstarter just fine. Kickstarter is fine. I'll just let others thin out the herd for me.
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Michael Fralish
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I just cancelled my pledge. This is beyond fishy at this point.
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Rob Rob
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Maus wrote:
Not trying to convince you to pledge, but just saying that the pledge price is about the same as the online store price.

Yeah, I have to say complaints about the pricing should be the least of anyone's worries. I'm cheap as they come and yet I find $40 for US/German card set base game to be quite reasonable. Sure it's not the US/German/Russian of the original but then again it's only $40 for a classic game. Assuming the rules are not "updated" beyond recognition, that's a bargain.
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Gunther Schmidl
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DrBrewhaha wrote:
I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.


Ok, backing.
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David Hoffman
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gschmidl wrote:
DrBrewhaha wrote:
I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.


Ok, backing.


I thought human flesh was a stretch goal.
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Phil Sauer
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ohbalto wrote:
gschmidl wrote:
DrBrewhaha wrote:
I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.


Ok, backing.


I thought human flesh was a stretch goal.

I've given my pound of it.
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Shane Brewer
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aaxiom wrote:
ohbalto wrote:
gschmidl wrote:
DrBrewhaha wrote:
I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.


Ok, backing.


I thought human flesh was a stretch goal.

I've given my pound of it.


Well played.
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Matt Price
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DrBrewhaha wrote:
I also read on the internetz that the cards will actually be made from human flesh and overpriced human flesh at that.


Richard Hamblen made that mistake with Merchant of Venus.
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