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Subject: Wyldside, yea or nay? rss

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mfl134
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FileAccess wrote:
Good morning all,

I've been generally happy with my HB deck, so I'm devoting my energies to trying to make a Runner deck that I'm equally happy with.

I'm currently focusing on getting my Anarch deck to a point where I'm at least content with it. I generally like the Anarch theme: trashing cards, trashing ICE, etc. However, I've been struggling with finding a deck that works as well as I'd like it to.

One of the sticking points for me is Wyldside. On one hand it's a great card: you get long term efficient card draw for the bargain price of three credits. What's not to like about that?

Well, since I asked...

• Wyldside takes up a lot of room in the deck. Overall it's three cards for Wyldside itself (as I've been playing three copies of it) plus two copies of Aesop's (to be able to turn it off when I want to). That's five cards out of a 45-card deck and four influence points to include Wyldside in my deck. I've found that Anarch already has a full deck between viruses, Djinns, and the like, so card space feels like it's at a premium relative to other factions.

• It's hard to turn off. 2x Aesop's makes it possible to turn it off, and chance are you'll hit at least one of them during the game. That said, I don't always hit one by the time I want to slow things down and focus on credits and running rather than picking up new cards.

• Lots of cards go in the discard. Between the three runner factions, I've found Anarch to generally be the most strapped for cash. Picking cards two at a time combined with cash flow problems leads to a significant number of cards going into the heap. Hand in hand with this, because Wyldside eats up an action every turn, there are fewer actions to use to gain credits, which exacerbates this dynamic.


What are your thoughts on Wyldside? Have you experienced the above, and how have you dealt with it? Have you run a non-Wyldside Anarch deck? Did it work well?


It definitely works better when you have more money. I put it in my criminal deck.

I wouldn't worry so much about turning it off. I would include just one Aesops so that you can turn it off before your deck runs out (in most cases).

I like it when Wyldside works out, but don't find building a deck around it worth it yet.

I'm still unsure about it.
 
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B C Z
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I run Wyldside in my Anarch deck and do NOT end up throwing a lot into the archives - at least not a lot that I care about.

Prep cards like Modded help with this greatly, since I can draw my two cards, then install one card with two 'spent' to keep hand size down (if that's the goal).

There are times you want to turn off the spigot though - and keeping up appearances at the club definitely interferes with your ability to easily bypass bioroid ICE.
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Fredrik Persson
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I think it is one of the absolute strongest cards that exists. Try adding in some copies of Easy Mark and/or Modded as well and see it truly shine. I generally tend to mulligan any Anarch hand without Wyldside.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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Hands down, Wyldside is the best card in my Anarch deck. In fact, I always mulligan if I do not draw it in my opening hand, no matter how lucrative the initial draw seems. Let me answer each of your worries in turn while highlighting the advantages of the card.

FileAccess wrote:
Wyldside takes up a lot of room in the deck.

First of all, and this is not directly related to Wyldside, I do not belong to the minimum deck size camp. While going up to 47-48 cards as a Runner will reduce your probability of drawing a specific card, the added flexibility is worth it. To throw some numbers around, let's say you have three copies of card X, and you want to draw it in your opening hand. Without a mulligan, your odds with a 45 cards deck are 30.2%; with a 48 cards deck it's 28.9%. In my opinion Netrunner is different than other card games in that that flexibility is crucial, so the 1.3% is worth it. Also, you have much more control of the tempo of drawing cards, allowing you to dig farther if needed.

Which leads us to the next point. Wyldside gives you a reasonable card advantage. However, for raw card advantage, I would pick the burst model of Diesel. The utility of Wyldside is, again, flexibility. It's not the amount of cards you draw, it's the fact that these cards give you unprecedented access to your deck. This goes back to the Zeromus game report you posted a while back. Zeromus (and many other players) start each Runner turn with drawing a card. Wyldside forces you to spend that Click, but, in exchange, gives you double the material to work with.

In other words, you're exchanging one type of flexibility (Clicks) for another (Cards), at double the usual rate. In the context of an Anarch deck, this is excellent, since Anarch has many little trinkets that he wants to pull and throw at the Corp, rather than a stable rig that gets the job done.

FileAccess wrote:
...plus two copies of Aesop's...

In my experience, one Aesop's is enough. You might not always draw it, but you don't want to draw two and as you said, the Influence is precious.

FileAccess wrote:
It's hard to turn off.

I agree, Wyldside is hard to turn off. This means you need to be prepared to have it for most of the game. Fortunately, Anarch is built around this philosophy. Many cheap cards that you can dump at the opponent, low reliance on credits and the ability to destroy ICE guarantees that the Corp will stumble enough to let you snatch these precious Agendas with only three Clicks.

FileAccess wrote:
Lots of cards go in the discard.

Why is that a bad thing? There is no inherent value in playing all of your cards. Would you prefer Wyldside if it said "Draw two cards, put one on the bottom of your deck"? You will rarely reach the bottom of your deck, and if you discard something precious you can Deja Vu for it later.

Wyldside is a powerful card that forces you to rethink your choices. It was placed in Anarch for a reason, since they're the faction most suitable to exploit it to the fullest. Experiment with ideas that would be crazy in other contexts and you would rip the benefits. For example, do you really need three copies of Djinn? Do you need more than one Medium/Crypsis? Heck, maybe three Sure Gambles are too much in a deck so strapped for cash! Ice Carver, is its bonus worth three Credits and a precious Click?

All of these questions hint at my specific decisions for my Anarch deck, of course. You might want to take a different path. And finally, there is nothing wrong with ditching Wyldside; heck, I could imagine an awesome Anarch deck with Magnum Opus instead.
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Ultimately, it's a nay to me. Card flow hasn't been a major issue for me and time has, so I don't see this as something I need.
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Justin
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I hate getting time-and-discard trapped beneath it way more than I like getting the extra cards.

Full-on heresy: I am actually splashing 3 Diesels in my latest Anarch deck.
 
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Justin
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byronczimmer wrote:
Prep cards like Modded help with this greatly, since I can draw my two cards, then install one card with two 'spent' to keep hand size down (if that's the goal).

Hm, I had it in my head that Modded was 3 influence, not 2. Not bad...
 
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Modded is great!

It reduces the cost of my breakers (most of which cost 3 or more), so it's an Easy Mark with a free install!

Late in the game, if they were clumped at the bottom of the deck, I can use Modded to install something at 3 or below, and then pawn it off to Aesop the next turn.

I've even pawned off a current inexpensive icebreaker or hardware for credits in order to REINSTALL the same breaker. Again, it's like an Easy Mark for cards I was going to throw away anyway.

The point is if you're flush with cards, but not actions, you want cards that give you free actions, and Modded does that.

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Noah D

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I do like running 2 Aesop's because I want the ability to stop Wyldside when I need those 4 actions. I'm ok with that though, given that Aesop pays his way just by selling my Armatiges, let alone his shutting down Wyldside, or more nifty tricks like trashing an early data sucker installed outside of Djinn, grabbing it back along with a Parrasite with using Deja Vu, and reinstalling to free up 1 MU (now on Djinn) trash 1 card from R&D, and get a token from Grimoire. Aesop will generously fund both Deja Vu and the reinstall.

In general I prefer the flexibility with my actions that Diesel offers, but in an Anarch deck I'm not spending my influence on those when I have Wyldside at my fingertips. It does require a deck that supports it (modded being a good example) but the flow of cards is certainly powerful. It's also really great vs Jinteki, fixing you up after the periodic net damage you will sustain without sparing a thought for it.
 
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Noah D

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FileAccess wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
First of all, and this is not directly related to Wyldside, I do not belong to the minimum deck size camp. While going up to 47-48 cards as a Runner will reduce your probability of drawing a specific card, the added flexibility is worth it.


*gasp!* Don't let Noah catch you talking like this!

(Just kidding, Noah... )

Haha yeah, watch out, the deck size police is coming for you!!!

But in-fact, an Anarch deck built around Wyldside can draw through the full stack, add to that the ability of Djinn to pull out any needed viruses that end up on the bottom and you have a very different situation from a Corp deck which is likely to only see a little over half of R&D during the course of a game and which has no ability to search out cards clumped at the bottom of the deck.

You basically said it later in your post, cards you never get to in your deck were dead cards. A card you draw to by blasting through your deck with Wyldside and then discard was at-least a step up from that since you had the opertunity to play it and chose other actions or cards.
 
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Martin Presley
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FileAccess wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Modded is great!


Oh, I completely agree with you. This is why I included it in my deck in the first place! It's just that I'm experiencing a theory-practice disconnect, so to speak.


I had an epiphany when I was playing Anarch and getting very inconsistent results. I realized that my natural playstyle simply ran counter to the style Wyldside requires. It's a great card, no doubt, but it really dominates the pace and tenor of your play; I imagine for some it fits them like a glove, and others have to re-learn a lot to not feel handicapped by it. Ultimately, I didn't want to have a deck where I had to go against my intuition to play it well, so I switched to a Criminal deck that splashes viruses, Stimhack, and Anarch breakers. It feels very much like a Criminal-Anarch hybrid, and has been working great.

This is all just my experience, but this thread very closely mirrored my thoughts before going Crim. Hope it helps you figure out what you want to do.
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One of the things I've found is that each faction, indeed each deck manifest, has its own feel and pace.

Finding the right fit 'for you' is one way to play.

Finding how to play a given deck 'well' is another.
 
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Chris Long
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My friend plays 3 copies of Wyldside in his deck, and I don't play any. I think it just depends on what kind of Anarch deck you want to play.

I completely understand why people love this card, and it is incredibly powerful in terms of economy. But I just don't like being locked into 3 action a turn instead of 4.

For me, Djinn and Grimoire are way more important to my deck. If I get both in my opening hand, I have a pretty good shot of running all over the Corp. I've played games before where I only drew 1 card, searched for 3 more with Djinn, and that was all I needed to win. So for me, deep draw just isn't the kind of thing I even want.
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El-ad David Amir
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FileAccess wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
In other words, you're exchanging one type of flexibility (Clicks) for another (Cards)...

I overall agree with you. However, you're also losing the flexibility of choosing what to do with your first action.

I did not express myself well, this is exactly what I meant. You're exchanging the flexibility of Clicks with the flexibility of Cards; and since it's mandatory the exchange rate is better.

IirionClaus wrote:
They're cheap, yes, but you still need some significant number of credits to keep your machine going. Also, while each individual expense may be lower, overall I feel like my Anarch deck has more things to spend money on then other decks given all of the viruses.

Breaking with Yog.0 is free, with Mimic it's dirty cheap, and Datasucker, Cyberfeeder and Stimhack are separate sources of Credits from your central credit pool. Anarch can win the game with a minimal amount of Credits.

IirionClaus wrote:
If the point of Wyldside is to increase your options of play without (necessarily) increasing what you're playing, then I can certainly see the value in that.

Considering you need to run and occasionally spend Clicks for Credits/Armitage, you cannot realistically expect to play all of these cards. You will discard your second Djinn/Wyldside/Corroder/Grimoire, etc.

IirionClaus wrote:
I thought it was just that Anarchs had all the cool counter-culture clothing and could get by the bouncers better?

Bouncers? Pffff, we Anarchs never get in through the front door, my friend cool

One additional point, regarding Modded. My Anarch deck is even more trim than usual:



I only have four cards that will use the three Credits off Modded and eight suitable targets that cost two. That's why I prefer Easy Mark in this context ... and I'm actually thinking of removing Grimoire.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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hoobajoo wrote:
I realized that my natural playstyle simply ran counter to the style Wyldside requires. It's a great card, no doubt, but it really dominates the pace and tenor of your play; I imagine for some it fits them like a glove, and others have to re-learn a lot to not feel handicapped by it.

Well said! I'm actually working now on my Wyldside-less gameplay, since I mess things up completely when I don't have it. I loveeeeee my Wyldside.
 
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Mike Aubuchon
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byronczimmer wrote:
Modded is great!

It reduces the cost of my breakers (most of which cost 3 or more), so it's an Easy Mark with a free install!

Late in the game, if they were clumped at the bottom of the deck, I can use Modded to install something at 3 or below, and then pawn it off to Aesop the next turn.

I've even pawned off a current inexpensive icebreaker or hardware for credits in order to REINSTALL the same breaker. Again, it's like an Easy Mark for cards I was going to throw away anyway.

The point is if you're flush with cards, but not actions, you want cards that give you free actions, and Modded does that.



I've posted once in a different thread extolling the virtues of Modded, but now I'm going to come back and argue against it. On paper, yes, Modded is exactly the sort of card you want. In practice, though, I've found two problems with it.

First, it's another card that doesn't do anything by itself in a deck that already feels very combo-heavy. My deck has enough draws where I'm staring at my hand thinking, "Man, if only any of these cards actually did anything." Sometimes things don't come together and you have to be prepared to make "fair" runs, and for that you need credits.

Second, while I agree that it's great when you have Wyldside active, it's usually worse than Easy Mark when you don't, and that's when the deck needs more help. Besides, with the influence you save going from Modded to Easy Mark, you can bring in other cards instead.

Don't get me wrong, Modded's a fine card--I'm just not convinced it worth the extra influence over Easy Mark, even in this kind of deck.
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Justin Dugger

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Yea.


I have a pretty good Anarch deck build focused around Wyld. Yes, running 3x means you'll have one or two dead draws. But if tune your deck around it, it's pretty bitch'un.

> I've found that Anarch already has a full deck between viruses, Djinns, and the like, so card space feels like it's at a premium relative to other factions.

Djinn just isn't that useful as a combo with Wyld, so that's out. You have crazy draw, don't bother making wishes. Deja vu though, isn't so awesome when you're already overloaded, so that's out.

> It's hard to turn off.

You don't want to turn it off. If deck out and still haven't won, it's time to consider surrendering and hope the next round goes better for you.

> Lots of cards go in the discard. Between the three runner factions, I've found Anarch to generally be the most strapped for cash.

This is where my inf. is spent. 3x Modded are a perfect match for wyld. Ideally I'd take out the armitage for Easy Marks or something, but until the new data packs land I'm kinda stuck with it. Basically, anything that converts cards into creds without multiple actions is an option.
 
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I personally think I like Wyldside best in Criminal, though it's very difficult to get it in the deck so I don't play it. But with all the Criminal events that give runs, it's actually nice to be drawing all those cards.

My main dislike with wyldside is the loss of action. I'm a much bigger fan of searching up with Djinn than I am Wyldsiding and when I played Anarch, that's the route I went. If I'm already spending one action drawing cards, even two cards, searching up with Djinn feels that much more painful.
 
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serdudds wrote:
I personally think I like Wyldside best in Criminal, though it's very difficult to get it in the deck so I don't play it. But with all the Criminal events that give runs, it's actually nice to be drawing all those cards.

My main dislike with wyldside is the loss of action. I'm a much bigger fan of searching up with Djinn than I am Wyldsiding and when I played Anarch, that's the route I went. If I'm already spending one action drawing cards, even two cards, searching up with Djinn feels that much more painful.


Wyldside is a firehose, and with Criminal I usually prefer tactical advantage, which is where Diesel comes in. Power when I want it.

Of course, Diesel is only a +1 card advantage per Diesel, so it's not THAT great of a card engine.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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byronczimmer wrote:
Of course, Diesel is only a +1 card advantage per Diesel, so it's not THAT great of a card engine.

As per what I said above, I agree. Diesel is not an engine, it's built around a burst model. If Wyldside is a firehose, Diesel is a fire extinguishing ball.
 
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IirionClaus wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Of course, Diesel is only a +1 card advantage per Diesel, so it's not THAT great of a card engine.

As per what I said above, I agree. Diesel is not an engine, it's built around a burst model. If Wyldside is a firehose, Diesel is a fire extinguishing ball.


Diesel is a good card for Shapers, but I've become convinced its influence cost makes it not worth it in other decks.
 
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Personally, I've dropped both Diesel and Wyldside from my Criminal deck, and I've not looked back (came in 1st place at a recent tournament).

With Criminal, it's all about holding the right card at the right time, and Wyldside takes away my ability to chose when and how I apply the cards in my hand. Diesel, on the other hand, was simply underwhelming for the influence. I don't miss either of them.
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Just to double check, I'm under the impression that you can "turn off" Wyldside by installing a second one which trashes both under the legend rule. That is, AFAIK you don't need an Aesop's to get rid of it.
 
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Martin Presley
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DrTall wrote:
Just to double check, I'm under the impression that you can "turn off" Wyldside by installing a second one which trashes both under the legend rule. That is, AFAIK you don't need an Aesop's to get rid of it.


Quoting from the manual, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Some cards have a unique symbol (◆) in front of their title. There can be only one unique card of the same title active at a time. If a card with a unique title becomes active, any other card that shares its title is immediately trashed. This trashing cannot be prevented.


So playing a second Wyldside would just cause the original to die, leaving you 3 credits poorer and nothing to show for it.
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El-ad David Amir
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DrTall wrote:
Just to double check, I'm under the impression that you can "turn off" Wyldside by installing a second one which trashes both under the legend rule. That is, AFAIK you don't need an Aesop's to get rid of it.

That could have been awesome. Unfortunately, the legend rule works differently than in Magic
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