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Subject: Preview and criticism - Dominion: Native rss

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Asa Berdahl
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These are just four card concepts for an Expansion I'm working on called "Dominion: Native".

The focus is a bit on double edged swords. The art is geared towards the primitive, and usually very colorful if possible. It's meant to appeal to the inner animal in us all. Just be careful or you'll get overwhelmed by all the voodoo.

Most of the 'really good' cards, have negative effects. So it forces you to use strategy with much greater intent than before to overcome the hole you will inevitably dig yourself into. Excessively using some cards could be bad for your VP score at the end.

I've implemented Curse tokens to keep track of curses that aren't intended to hurt you deck, only your final score. We had a bag of purple polished pebbles lying around. I'm still play testing and tweaking as we speak.

It will be similar to Dark ages in that there is a varient starting hand. I need to get a blank version of the shelter cards and then I'll be able to fire those off.

Tell me what you think for my first ever cards. Also, I'm going to make War Drums a $3 card, I just didn't update the image.

Preview cards:
[From left to right]
War Drums: $3 Duration (On this turn and your next, choose one: +1 Coin; +1 Card; +1 Action)
River: $4 Action (+3 Cards, +1 Buy. Discard a card.)
Ritual Mask: $2 Action-Curse (-1 VP, Discard this for +2 Actions)
Cocoa Beans: $3 Treasure-Victory (1 Coin, 1 VP.)
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Ron Laufer
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If I'm understanding Ritual Mask correctly, it should just say "+2 Actions." (see Great Hall, for example, which says "+1 card, +1 action", not "discard this for +1 card, +1 action") Just because it's a curse doesn't mean it won't function as a normal action card.

But unless you have really good reasons in the set why you'd want an action-curse in your deck, it compares really poorly with Crossroads and Native Village.

River compares really poorly with Margrave too. (Yes, it costs 1 less, but it's 1 less card AND not an attack) Compare it to Smithy too. I don't think +buy is worth "discard a card".

Cocoa Beans I've seen done before. It's probably fair, but I'm not sure I'd buy one except very close to the end game, or maybe in combo with Hoard or Scout.

War Drums might be ok. I can't decide if it's worth 3 or 2. It's better than Pawn, but not as good as Fishing Village, but Fishing Village is one of the best 3's in the game.
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Dave Green
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I believe the point of Ritual Mask is that it can be taken instead of a vanilla curse card (and subsequently played for actions or trashed for benefit). Its advantage over Crossroads and Native Village is that a curse-dealing opponent will feed them to you for free.

At least, thats my understanding of how dual-type Curse cards would work, based on rulings for other dual-type cards.
 
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Ron Laufer
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KernTheGerm wrote:
I believe the point of Ritual Mask is that it can be taken instead of a vanilla curse card (and subsequently played for actions or trashed for benefit). Its advantage over Crossroads and Native Village is that a curse-dealing opponent will feed them to you for free.
Makes sense, but in that case, why would you ever take a normal Curse if Ritual Mask is available? And why cost it at 2? If you'd never buy one, the cost is only important for remodel-type effects. It seems more interesting to me to make the cost fit so that it's sometimes the right move to buy one.
 
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Asa Berdahl
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KernTheGerm wrote:
I believe the point of Ritual Mask is that it can be taken instead of a vanilla curse card (and subsequently played for actions or trashed for benefit). Its advantage over Crossroads and Native Village is that a curse-dealing opponent will feed them to you for free.


gonzoron wrote:
Makes sense, but in that case, why would you ever take a normal Curse if Ritual Mask is available? And why cost it at 2? If you'd never buy one, the cost is only important for remodel-type effects. It seems more interesting to me to make the cost fit so that it's sometimes the right move to buy one.


I was kinda going for that with the cursed cards. But that is a card that would end up in the supply to buy. However, Players would gain curse tokens for attack actions on other players. There are a few cards to remove the tokens. Only one is non-terminal. There's a lot of ways to get excess actions. The set is balanced towards itself, but It would be better to see it all, right?

I'm thinking heavily on dodging tokens and putting other cursed cards out. Ones that feed higher -VP cards with better actions to you. Some swords are just bladed on both sides.

There's quite a few more action cards(3-5 in the set) that are cursed. It makes the decision to have one or more of them in your deck something to put some thought into.

I want to make one where actions will generally have consequences, and rewards are slim. Most attacks won't give you significant advantage over other players. It's your job to rid your voodoo curses and try to make the village safe and prosperous.
 
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Ron Laufer
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Keep in mind that there are often complaints (true or not) that actions aren't strong enough, and Big Money is better. If you make actions worse, you're just encouraging Big Money.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Well, right away I can tell you that War Drums isn't worth picking up for free. Using it for any of its abilities puts it on par with any of several 0-coin Ruins cards the first turn and that's already a detriment to card flow that the pitiful second-turn benefit doesn't make up for the card being in the deck. I certainly wouldn't spend coins and a buy picking one up. If one of the choices were +1 Buy and it were the only +1 Buy in the kingdom, it might fill a role, but that role is already commonly filled.

I see nothing wrong with River. It might be a bit pricey but it's a workable card. The features are all basic but they've never been combined in exactly that way before. I can't wait to see some of the original effects you created.

I think that Ritual Mask may be suffering from a formatting error because I don't really understand it. Normally, the thing that happens when a card is played is above the horizontal bar and stuff that occurs at any other time (which is specified on the card) is below the bar. In this case, it looks like -1 victory point is earned when played as an action and when the Ritual Mask is discarded, +2 Actions are earned. It will almost always be discarded during some time other than the owner's Action Phase (as a result of Clean-up Phase, upon being gained, or someone else's Attack). In such cases, extra Actions are useless. This makes me think that you intend for the active portion of the card to be worth +2 Actions (like Necropolis) and that it is worth the negative point of a regular Curse. If this is the case, you really must flip the location of those elements. Also, is it your intent that the Ritual Mask is discarded when used for +2 Actions and not merely put into play, like most Action cards? If so, then that is rather unique. It could potentially be used repeatedly during a single turn, given enough draw, and just might allow for some new crazy strategies, provided a player has enough time and reason to put such a thing together. I'd still recommend re-wording it, as "for" isn't necessary there. Just "Discard this. +2 Actions" is apropos.

Cocoa Bean is not entirely new in the fan concepts. The "little Harem" has been seen several times. There's no reason to not include it in your expansion, if it fits your theme and design style. But again, it is just combining existing stuff in a new way, even if that means tweaked numerics.

I'd like to see what new ideas you've created. Good teaser, though.
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Ron Laufer
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gonzoron wrote:
War Drums might be ok. I can't decide if it's worth 3 or 2. It's better than Pawn, but not as good as Fishing Village, but Fishing Village is one of the best 3's in the game.
It's only after reading FlatOnHisFace's assessment that I noticed War Drums is "Choose One" and not "Choose Two" like Pawn. With that in mind, my quoted statement above is wrong. it's actually way worse than Pawn and should either cost 1 or be changed entirely.
 
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Asa Berdahl
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gonzoron wrote:
It's only after reading FlatOnHisFace's assessment that I noticed War Drums is "Choose One" and not "Choose Two" like Pawn. With that in mind, my quoted statement above is wrong. it's actually way worse than Pawn and should either cost 1 or be changed entirely.


I completely re-did the War drums card. It was intended to work with the set it was releasing in, but I've forgone the curse token idea so I'm still revising everything.

Here's how it reads now:
War Drums $3
Action-Duration
+1 Action.
On your next turn:
+2 Cards, +1 Buy.

And I'd like some opinions on this:

Passage Rites $4
Action
+1 Action.
Draw 2 cards, then choose one:
Trash one, and discard the other;
Put both back on the top in any order. Gain a Curse.
 
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Werner Bär
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AsaBerdahl wrote:
War Drums $3
Action-Duration
+1 Action.
On your next turn:
+2 Cards, +1 Buy.

A close relative to the caravan (+1 action, +2 cards over 2 turns), slightly improved (+1 buy in the turn with the many cards). Should cost at least 4, more likely 5.

AsaBerdahl wrote:
Passage Rites $4
Action
+1 Action.
Draw 2 cards, then choose one:
Trash one, and discard the other;
Put both back on the top in any order. Gain a Curse.

Much worse than Lookout. I wouldn't buy it at 3, and i don't think i would buy it at 2.
 
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Ron Laufer
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Werbaer wrote:
AsaBerdahl wrote:
War Drums $3
Action-Duration
+1 Action.
On your next turn:
+2 Cards, +1 Buy.

A close relative to the caravan (+1 action, +2 cards over 2 turns), slightly improved (+1 buy in the turn with the many cards). Should cost at least 4, more likely 5.
Nah... it's not nearly as good as Wharf. 4 seems right, not 5.


(Note that we keep comparing stuff to existing cards, although your intent is for the set to be more insular. But without seeing your whole set, existing cards is really all we have to go on. One could imagine a set that's meant to be played only by itself, where you incentivize different things by playing with the costs, but that would really need to have a well-thought-out goal like "+buys should be cheaper, +cards should be more expensive" or something. So, barring that, all we can do is compare to existing cards.)
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Asa Berdahl
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I'm trying to refine them a bit more. I'll say, I'm almost a little scared of the stuff that might get said about the set in general. I'm happy that I'm getting constructive feedback. I'll admit that this is nice to know how well my cards would intermingle in the whole game.

I would say that it would be nice to think that while underpowered or a little heavier in some ways than other cards. That it would invest in strategy. I want that kind of help. A really nice fan made set of Dominion that would be print worthy would be awesome. I'm really invested in looking for good are, and I'm realizing some of it will have to be made to suit it's card.

Again, Zulu tribe theme, and curse heavy. I'd like actions that may get a little overpowered to be hinged with a curse to curve them back. A money boost that would make buying a province feel like buying a Dutchy until you can compensate, but you'd be buying provinces turns before big money could buy a handful of anything.

I'll have a full list soon. A CSV(Low-End Excel sheet) file of the set so you can go over them all in one shot. It will open in Excel and Open office as a spreadsheet if you do it right. Here's the link:

http://uploading.com/files/get/b4c84c5d/Dominion%2BCard%2BLi...
 
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El_Heffe El_Heffe
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Regarding war drums:

It seems to me that a card with a title like that ought to involve attacks in some way. Having it as an action-attack-duration that attacks this turn and next could be fun. Or it could be an action-duration that serves as a protection against attacks that others may play between the end of this turn and the beginning of your next (having the effect of a reaction card but continuously).

Regardless, getting buys from a duration card called "war drums" doesnt seem to match the implied flavor of the title

I'm just sayin'
 
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Chris Yi
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Does Ritual Mask need to be discarded by an action card that specifically instructs "Discard a card," or do you just discard it from play and get 2 actions?

I suppose the one virtue of having the instruction as is to discard to get actions is that hand-size sensitive cards such as Cellar and Madman would be affected.

I think the two parts, the negative victory emblem and the action part, should be switched, action on top, and negative victory emblem on bottom.
 
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