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Subject: Rik: Who is producing the game? rss

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Doug Click
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@Rik Falch - I am confused, and I am sure I am not the only one. Valley Games is the entity that collected pledges and is producing both D-Day Dice and Airborne in Your Pocket. It is stated at the bottom of the project page that D-Day Dice was produced and Airborne in Your Pocket are moving along nicely, which states that this project, by Radiant Games, will be produced in the same manner.

Quote:
Quote:
"Quality is always a concern in designer board games. We understand this and strive to provide the best quality possible while still making the game hit a reasonable price point. D-Day Dice was delivered to all the loyal supporters and they have all been VERY pleased with the quality of the production. UP FRONT will be no different.

Our most recent project, Airborne In Your Pocket, is moving forward nicely. Some components are at the printer already and Emmanuel is finishing off the last few designs of some of the extra Stretch Rewards we offered you."


So, has Radiant Games taken over those two projects? Is Valley Games no longer an entity with which you (or Emmanuel) are associated with? I guess I am just worried that this project was announced earlier as a Valley Games project,

Quote:

Valley Games is very excited to announce that we have been offered the opportunity to produce Up Front. In association with the original designer, Courtney Allen, we will reproduce this classic title with improved and enhanced rules, new artwork and new graphic design. We will use Kickstarter to fund the project with a planned launch date of December 2012.


Valley Games produced the wonderful D-Day Dice, a great game with amazing production quality, and now the “risks” says Radiant Games produced it and is working on AiYP, which is moving along nicely. Can you shed some light on this? Can we expect the same quality? Using same printers? Is it just simply moving the game company to the USA because of Kickstarter rules?

There are a lot of questions about this project...




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Charlie Theel
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Sayburr wrote:
@Rik Falch - I am confused, and I am sure I am not the only one. Valley Games is the entity that collected pledges and is producing both D-Day Dice and Airborne in Your Pocket. It is stated at the bottom of the project page that D-Day Dice was produced and Airborne in Your Pocket are moving along nicely, which states that this project, by Radiant Games, will be produced in the same manner.

Quote:
Quote:
"Quality is always a concern in designer board games. We understand this and strive to provide the best quality possible while still making the game hit a reasonable price point. D-Day Dice was delivered to all the loyal supporters and they have all been VERY pleased with the quality of the production. UP FRONT will be no different.

Our most recent project, Airborne In Your Pocket, is moving forward nicely. Some components are at the printer already and Emmanuel is finishing off the last few designs of some of the extra Stretch Rewards we offered you."


So, has Radiant Games taken over those two projects? Is Valley Games no longer an entity with which you (or Emmanuel) are associated with? I guess I am just worried that this project was announced earlier as a Valley Games project,

Quote:

Valley Games is very excited to announce that we have been offered the opportunity to produce Up Front. In association with the original designer, Courtney Allen, we will reproduce this classic title with improved and enhanced rules, new artwork and new graphic design. We will use Kickstarter to fund the project with a planned launch date of December 2012.


Valley Games produced the wonderful D-Day Dice, a great game with amazing production quality, and now the “risks” says Radiant Games produced it and is working on AiYP, which is moving along nicely. Can you shed some light on this? Can we expect the same quality? Using same printers? Is it just simply moving the game company to the USA because of Kickstarter rules?

There are a lot of questions about this project...






I know you want an official answer, but the most likely case is that Radiant was setup just to use as a front so that they could list games on kickstarter. I seriously doubt they actually moved production/assets to the U.S. to produce the game.
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Phil Sauer
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Radiant Darkstar Productions, LLC is a legitimate company formed in the State of Texas.

I have no reason to believe it was a front for anything. It was formed in September 2011. The purpose of this was not revealed to me, though I did know about its formation at the time from outside sources not related to Valley Games, Inc.

EDIT: Clarity about formation of the LLC.
 
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Doug Click
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Well, it seems the answer is that Valley Games gave Radiant Games use their logo and name.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10561123#10561123

Quote:
Absolutely. [D-Day Dice] and Airborne In Your Pocket were actually both published under Radiant Gaming, NOT Valley Games. Radiant Gaming is a US company that was established for Kickstarter projects alone.

The Valley Games logo was lended to Radiant Gaming for brand recognition and customer loyalty as nobody know who Radiant Gaming was.

I do hope this helps and we appreciate your support to date.


Please note, [D-Day Dice] originally said “Valley Games”, I just assumed it was a typo…

Being that there is no judgment against Radiant Games LLC, this project should be "safe". As to the moral issues of backing a company with ties to Valley Games, that is for each person to decide on their own.

I assume the set up for Radiant Games, LLC in September 2011 was also the reason D-Day Dice was delayed to the end of October… had to let that ink dry on the paperwork.

Phil, I hope you get compensated for your lost investment capital and costs, but a few years ago I went through a similar thing and didn’t get anything from the breach of contract judgment that was ruled in my favor. I hope your case comes out better for you. I guess that is why I only “invest” in games through Kickstarter, in small amounts.

I believe enough in the game “Up Front” to risk my $125, in that the game will be delivered and my Line For Life for D-Day Dice and Airborne in Your Pocket will continue to see benefit. But, if wrong, I am also willing to “Eat Crow” and admit that Phil tried to warn me…

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Charlie Theel
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Gave them "use of their logo"? This makes little sense and all I continue to see is that there is plenty of evidence that Radiant is merely a front. Forming a corporation/LLC is easy so the fact that Radiant is a legitimately formed LLC means very little (I found over a dozen websites which you let form a Texas LLC online with a quick google search).

What I see is the following:

-Valley games logo/publishing credits on AIYP/DDay Dice
-Valley games listing AIYP and DDay Dice on their web page as games they have published
-The registrant of Radiant games website (which isn't even up yet) being the same address as that of Valley Games.


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Jonathan Harrison
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The Valley Games logo was lended to Radiant Gaming for brand recognition and customer loyalty as nobody know who Radiant Gaming was.

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Doug Click
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
The Valley Games logo was lended to Radiant Gaming for brand recognition and customer loyalty as nobody know who Radiant Gaming was.

Hey... I grew up on a cattle farm... I know what that is!
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Charlie Theel
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Some additional evidence due to a thread which just got bumped and I saw on the front page: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/841553/has-valley-games-gone...

In the above thread a person states that Valley games was selling D-Day Dice at a Con (that would be more involvement than just "lending their logo"). Additionally, David Janik-Jones (who I believe is involved in the Up Front reprint with Radiant/Valley) makes reference to Valley games being in the midst of packaging D-Day dice boxes.

So, apparently people working with Radiant/Valley don't know who is publishing what or the Radiant games thing is in fact, BS, as colorfully pointed out by Jonathan.
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Pablo Klinkisch
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HuginnGreiling wrote:


That's disgusting!! I'm in the internet, I don't want to see nature!!!

So BS looks like that? I would have thought it was more consistent with all the fiber and so.
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Steve Bachman
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
The Valley Games logo was lended to Radiant Gaming for brand recognition and customer loyalty as nobody know who Radiant Gaming was.


The original quote cracked me up. The used the Valley Games logo and name for credibility?!?!? That's a hoot!
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Phil Sauer
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Ward wrote:
HuginnGreiling wrote:
The Valley Games logo was lended to Radiant Gaming for brand recognition and customer loyalty as nobody know who Radiant Gaming was.


The original quote cracked me up. The used the Valley Games logo and name for credibility?!?!? That's a hoot!

Did they pay back the logo that was lended (sic)?
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Brian Thomas
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It's called a shell company and is not in itself illegal. There are many legitimate reasons to use a shell company and I see no reason to not accept valley games assertion that it's so they can use kickstarter which requires a us based company.

Not taking sides in any of this, just pointing out that valley games setting up a us based shell company is not in itself suspicious behavior.
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Phil Sauer
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https://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/coa/servlet/cpa.app.coa.CoaGe...

From other comments from those close to the Registered Agent listed on the page referenced above, this is Byron Kevin McKenzie's company. Texas requires a registered agent to be a Texas citizen.

I have to wonder why Garland, TX isn't listed on the Kickstarter page... instead it lists Atlanta, GA.

Very confusing... perhaps intentionally, but possibly not.


EDIT: This link did not work the other day... now it does for some reason:

https://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/coa/servlet/cpa.app.coa.CoaOf...

It seems that Byron Kevin McKenzie is the sole director and executive officer of the company.

MusicToEat wrote:
It's called a shell company and is not in itself illegal. There are many legitimate reasons to use a shell company and I see no reason to not accept valley games assertion that it's so they can use kickstarter which requires a us based company.

Not taking sides in any of this, just pointing out that valley games setting up a us based shell company is not in itself suspicious behavior.
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Brian Thomas
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I believe Atlanta is where the shipping company they use is located. At least that's where they shipped d-day dice from.
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Phil Sauer
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Yes, but where the company ships product from should be immaterial to the discussion. This should read Garland, Texas, no?

(I am aware that their warehouseman is in the Atlanta, Georgia area (Norcross, GA)).
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Doug Click
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OK, so, it sounds to me like, on paper, RADIANT DARKSTAR PRODUCTIONS L.L.C. is a company in the USA that is owned by BYRON KEVIN MCKENZIE who is utilizing Valley Games INC's infrastructure, a company in Canada, to produce and sell a product under the Valley Games Inc’s trademark and “good name”.

Now that Mr. McKenzie has learned more about Valley Games and after one complete project and the production of a second project had learned how to produce product on his own, the latest game project is being done without Valley Game INC’s help and will be produced completely under the Radiant Darkstar Productions name… with a “little bit of help” here and there by Valley Games INC’s owners.

… I bet it could even be argued, in court, that the only reason Rik Falch posted the Kickstarter Project was because Mr McKenzie decided to go alone on the project AFTER Mr. Falch posted it to the Kickstarter site, and thought that changing the logo would be sufficient in showing that Valley Games INC is not involved in the project.

…anyway, that is how I could spin it… It would isolate the games produced by the Kickstarter Capital Funding vs. those where Capital were received by single investors.

I just hope Mr McKenzie has not invested Capital into this game company that he might never see a return on...

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Doug Click
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aaxiom wrote:
Yes, but where the company ships product from should be immaterial to the discussion. This should read Garland, Texas, no?
You would think it would have to be the address of the corporate headquarters... Maybe that is the mailing address that was given to Kickstarter for the bank to deposit funds in. At least it is not listed as the Cayman Islands.

Yeah, there are still a lot of questions left unanswered.
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Brian Thomas
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aaxiom wrote:
Yes, but where the company ships product from should be immaterial to the discussion. This should read Garland, Texas, no?

(I am aware that their warehouseman is in the Atlanta, Georgia area (Norcross, GA)).


I'm not sure what Kickstarter's policy is about listing the projects location, but speaking from an end consumer's perspective, I'd much rather know where the game will be shipping from, then where the mast head of the company is.

Listing the location as Texas could lead Texans and people from surrounding states to believe they'd be the first in the country to receive the game.
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Charlie Theel
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MusicToEat wrote:
It's called a shell company and is not in itself illegal. There are many legitimate reasons to use a shell company and I see no reason to not accept valley games assertion that it's so they can use kickstarter which requires a us based company.

Not taking sides in any of this, just pointing out that valley games setting up a us based shell company is not in itself suspicious behavior.


Yes, that's true. The issue, I believe, is that they are using this shell company to mislead people and distance themselves from the lawsuites.
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Brian Thomas
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"Yes, that's true. The issue, I believe, is that they COULD BE using this shell company to mislead people and distance themselves from the lawsuites."

I think that would be a more accurate statement. Neither you nor I know what Valley Games intentions are behind using Radiant Games as a shell company. I was just pointing out that them having a shell company is not in and of itself suspicious which seemed to be the direction this thread is heading. However, if they were, in fact, using this as a way to hide their tracks from johnny law, they're doing a horrible job at it.

I hope Phil receives every penny that's coming to him, but I really don't see anything all that suspicious in the whole Radiant Gaming connection.
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Bryan Lane
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charlest wrote:
MusicToEat wrote:
It's called a shell company and is not in itself illegal. There are many legitimate reasons to use a shell company and I see no reason to not accept valley games assertion that it's so they can use kickstarter which requires a us based company.

Not taking sides in any of this, just pointing out that valley games setting up a us based shell company is not in itself suspicious behavior.


Yes, that's true. The issue, I believe, is that they are using this shell company to mislead people and distance themselves from the lawsuites.


I would agree. I think that if the previous KS were to help make a name for Radiant Gaming, it would be listed as "Radiant Gaming in association with Valley Games", but Radiant wasn't named anywhere in those previous KS campaigns that I can recall. While I have no doubt that they created this shell company to qualify for the use of KS, I do believe the choice to label this campaign as a Radiant Gaming project is to avoid the connection with the current Sauer/Knizia bad press with the Valley Games brand.
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MusicToEat wrote:
"Yes, that's true. The issue, I believe, is that they COULD BE using this shell company to mislead people and distance themselves from the lawsuites."

I think that would be a more accurate statement. Neither you nor I know what Valley Games intentions are behind using Radiant Games as a shell company. I was just pointing out that them having a shell company is not in and of itself suspicious which seemed to be the direction this thread is heading. However, if they were, in fact, using this as a way to hide their tracks from johnny law, they're doing a horrible job at it.

I hope Phil receives every penny that's coming to him, but I really don't see anything all that suspicious in the whole Radiant Gaming connection.


I didn't use the word "could" because there are quotes in another thread from a response to a Kickstarter backer's question where Rik states that Radiant gaming is not owned by Valley Games and has nothing to do with the judgment issued by the court. Which, to me, seems to indicate they are trying to weasel out of this mess and deflect blame.

The quote's in the huge thread that I started, trying to find it.
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Charlie Theel
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Here's the quote:
Quote:
Paul Cooper about 1 hour ago
There is a lot of buzzing going on over at BGG that Valley Games is being sued by an investor for unpaid loans to the tune of $300k, and already has a judgement against Valley Games for $125k.
Will this situation have any impact on this project and it's ability to fulfill the pledge levels?

Creator Rik Falch 34 minutes ago
@ Paul Cooper - No, as the suit is against Valley Games and NOT Radiant Gaming. Two different companies.


That to me is misleading if it is indeed a shell company.
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charlest wrote:

The quote's in the huge thread that I started, trying to find it.


Fourth post down...
 
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Anyone with half a clue can see that Rik is taking people for a ride. The fact that he contradicts himself in various posts is testament to this fact. I think all those that have backed and have queries should post comments on the kickstarter page for answers to the above. It is in your rights! Well done Paul Cooper for asking the questions. I looked at his bidding history, this is not the first project he has bid on and he has backed many of the valley games/radiant gaming productions and a lot of other games. Not just someone who has it against valley games me thinks! Has anyone notified Kickstarter? I believe that this should be highlighted! The more people that do, the more Rik will need to answer these queries. A proper game company (any company) should be able to answer its stakeholders questions! In the end it is them that make the company and help to boost its reputation! GMT games a prime example of this!
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