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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: KO played Hero never matters for total attack value? rss

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Jeremy Yoder
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Given these two rules in the rule book...

1) If a card says to KO "one of your Heroes", that can be a Hero you've already played this turn or a Hero still in your hand. If you KO a Hero you already played this turn, you still get to use the Recruit Points, Attack, and special abilities that Hero produced.

2) If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says prior to comparing Attack totals.


The second rule seems unnecessary and confusing. For instance, if I play 3 troopers for 3 attack, I can attack a Sentinel. His fight ability says to KO one of my heroes. Via the first rule, I can KO a trooper I've played, and still use its Attack point. Therefore, the second rule is bogus, right?
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Daniel Corban
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If you are unable to create a relevant scenario using the current set of cards, know that the rules were likely developed using cards we have yet to see.

The rule helps prevent any timing ambiguity. I have no doubt that someone on BGG would post a rules question asking if you perform the card text before or after fighting the villain. Hell, based on the history of these forums over the years, someone may still ask the question.
 
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Jeremy Yoder
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I was just making sure I was playing it right. Unless someone else chimes in, it sounds like I am. At first, I was playing it wrong as I focused on rule 2 before re-reading rule 1.

I think that's an easy mistake to make, so just wanted clarification. Thanks.
 
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Daniel Palmer
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You would be correct in thinking that. That other rules is simply for other effects that would happen that could affect current gameplay. If that sounds too ambiguous, let me break it down using your example first:

you play your 3 troopers. At this point, their effects come in to play and remain in play (3 attack)

You fight the Sentinel, which forces you to KO a hero.

Because you played your cards, your attack remains the same, but your hero is KO'd before the Sentinel is destroyed. Here is a different example however:

You play 4 Troopers and any hero that adds at least 2 attack (6 attack total)

You fight Enchantress (strength 6) whose fight effect says "draw 3 card."

Her fight effect happens first, meaning you draw more cards then fight her. For the next attack, your attack level could be increased depending on the cards drawn. Because you could then use any fight you have left over, you could then total the amount of fight you have between all cards you played, then subtract 6 from that because you fought Enchantress.

A better way to look at it is to review more cards to have a better understanding why those rules are posted that way. Or just review how you fight a Mastermind, since fighting works the same way with them and they always have a fight effect that happens once you reveal the card. In both cases, the fight effect is revealed/happens after the current attack is calculated, so the current level of the attack cannot be changed.
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Kaiwen Zhang
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true_dnd wrote:

You fight Enchantress (strength 6) whose fight effect says "draw 3 card."

Her fight effect happens first, meaning you draw more cards then fight her. For the next attack, your attack level could be increased depending on the cards drawn. Because you could then use any fight you have left over, you could then total the amount of fight you have between all cards you played, then subtract 6 from that because you fought Enchantress.


Don't really understand your example, you can fight in between playing cards. Whether you draw cards after or before the enchantress is defeated makes no difference, you can play cards you've drawn after the fight to prepare for the next fight.

The rule would matter if, for example, a villain had an ability like: "Fight: this villain has +2 attack power if standing in the sewers", then you can see it makes sense to apply the fight affect before the fight actually happens, otherwise it would do nothing because the villain would already be defeated.
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Daniel Corban
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I await the inevitable rules question regarding whether the fight ability of Endless Armies of Hydra can cause itself to "escape" before the fight is even resolved.
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R.J.
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johncraven wrote:
The rule would matter if, for example, a villain had an ability like: "Fight: this villain has +2 attack power if standing in the sewers", then you can see it makes sense to apply the fight affect before the fight actually happens, otherwise it would do nothing because the villain would already be defeated.


Good example...

The rule is helpful for resolving timing, in the case of that one question coming up that one time.

We have these sorts of timing questions for Cosmic Encounters about 5 times per game in my group.

Glad to see it being resolved.


 
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J W
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johncraven wrote:

The rule would matter if, for example, a villain had an ability like: "Fight: this villain has +2 attack power if standing in the sewers", then you can see it makes sense to apply the fight affect before the fight actually happens, otherwise it would do nothing because the villain would already be defeated.


Another example is the FIGHT ability of "Endless Armies of Hydra" which reads "Play the top two cards of the Villain Deck". Like all FIGHT abilities, this is to be resolved prior to comparing your Attack value and the villain's Attack value. When you declare the attack on it, you FIRST play 2 cards from the Villain Deck, make the necessary adjustments to the villains' locations, THEN compare and defeat it.

"Cut off one head, two more shall take its place." -Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)

lol
 
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J W
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dcorban wrote:
I await the inevitable rules question regarding whether the fight ability of Endless Armies of Hydra can cause itself to "escape" before the fight is even resolved.


so what IS the answer? lol
 
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Matthew McFarland
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BGNoob wrote:
dcorban wrote:
I await the inevitable rules question regarding whether the fight ability of Endless Armies of Hydra can cause itself to "escape" before the fight is even resolved.


so what IS the answer? lol


I'd guess no. Technically it's out of the city, but since you've already decided to fight them it still happens. The rules say to carry out Fight abilities "before compairing fight totals" so I'd assume it's compaired no matter where they end up (similar to KOing a hero but still getting his/her Fight and Recruit points), but you would suffer any triggered effects from other villians escaping as normal before the fight.

At least that's my interpretation.
 
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Daniel Corban
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Yes, I was being facetious.

It's just so you always have to "fight" under the worst circumstances. For example, a villain with a fight ability saying "+4 fight if on the bridge" would have no effect if you applied it after you compared fight totals.
 
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Kaiwen Zhang
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but is the villain still considered escaped? ie., does it still KO a hero, does it still count for the escape scheme...
 
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Daniel Corban
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I thought this was just a joke, but if you are seriously asking, the answer is no. The rule just forces players to factor in all effects before fighting. It prevents loopholes and rules lawyers. Just treat everything as simultaneous.
 
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J W
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Considering the fact that the "Fight" effect always takes place first, I think "Endless Armies of Hydra" WILL escape if the 2 new villain cards push it, and maybe 1 other villain, off the city space. "Escape" effects, if any, take place and hero(es) are KO'd.
I think whether your attack points spent on "Endless Armies of Hydra" are "wasted" is the main question.
 
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Daniel Corban
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You would be incorrect. I feel bad that I instigated this. The joke was that there is always someone out there who comes on the forum asking about some obscure rules interpretation. I guess we just got it over with. Now we can move on to real rules questions, although I have a feeling there aren't any not answered in the rulebook, at least until the expansion(s) hit.
 
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Devin Low
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Hi guys,

Apologies that the third bullet under "How to Fight a Villain" on page 13 ended up a little confusing. That bullet should just say "If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says." It shouldn't say "prior to comparing to Attack totals." So to recap, to fight a Villain you:

● Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
● Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
● If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!

Devin Low meeple
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J W
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devinlow wrote:
Hi guys,

Apologies that the third bullet under "How to Fight a Villain" on page 13 ended up a little confusing. That bullet should just say "If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says." It shouldn't say "prior to comparing to Attack totals." So to recap, to fight a Villain you:

● Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
● Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
● If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!

Devin Low meeple
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the timing IS important, especially with that specific card that we're talking about, "Endless Armies of Hydra".

so the exact order is:
1- Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
2- Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
3- If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

correct?

Thank god for BGG forums lol. and Thank you.

 
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Daniel Corban
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dcorban wrote:
I await the inevitable rules question regarding whether the fight ability of Endless Armies of Hydra can cause itself to "escape" before the fight is even resolved.


I'm quoting myself because someone sincerely asked this question! cool

Endless Armies of HYDRA
 
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Mark Smalley
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I think a serious amount of ambiguity exists within the timing of the hypothetical Endless Armies situation being bandied about in this thread (and the exact same situation we ran into tonight, in the realities. see dcorbans link.)
 
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Tom
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Actually, while I agree to a point, I think the ambiguity exists perhaps the main reason people are having problems with the rulebook is because of all the games we on the geek play and not necessarily because it is a terrible rulebook. I was able to play the game correctly by strickly following what the rules say and don't say (but I can understand why people got the rules wrong). The rules in this case don't say first resolve then fight. I thought the examples in the rulebook are clear about order. The reason I am posting this is not to be snarky but to actually agree with you from a different perspective.

These rules are an example of rules that a new to boardgames gamer playing their first deck builder would understand but a veteran might get wrong. This is what I see is a major problem in rule sets. Clarification of mechanics. Also, clarification for the sins of other rulebooks in the past.

There are so many mechanics out there that I can't tell you how many threads on BGG are about rules clarifications because the rules were written clearly to address the game in a vaccum but they do not address the world which is "this game is similar to another dozen games" so players ask can we do x,y, or z because you can in my other favorite game that is very similar to this game we are now playing. I have run into hundreds of situations where the rules don't specify yes or no so therefore some people believe they can perform a particular action while others believe the answer was no because the rules did not specify a particular action. In a perfect world if the rulebook does not say you can do something, you can't do a particular action. However, in the past the correct interpretation of several rulebooks (FFG comes to mind) doesn't mention it in the rules therefore you can't do x,y, or z is actually wrong and the rulebook written intended but did not expressly state the rule. Becasue there are so many bad rulebooks: often the real correct interpretation is "yes, even though the rules don't specifically state it, yes you can."

Ultimately, my point of this post is for rulebook writers to understand they need to write rules not just for their game, but also keeping in mind other games that are similar, realizing their mechanics are different and therefore clarifications and perhaps repeating examples in detail are ways to avoid confusion of players.

A perfect example of a game needing this is 3012. I really like the game but I was playing with four veteran boardgamers and a few of them were really stumped not because of the rules, but because it took them awhile to wrap their head around the rules because they are so different and counter intuitive to the other games they have played before (which is why I like the game...it is different enough).
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Devin Low
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Hello all,

Yes, the bullets go in order, so the order is:

1- Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
2- Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
3- If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

So the Endless Armies of HYDRA will be put into a Victory Pile before their Fight effect is resolved.

All the best,

Devin Low meeple
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Roland Johansson
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that was good to find, this rule really messed up for us tonight
 
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David M. Cabal Inés
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Then villains with power as "Fight: this villain has Attack +2" are faulty/buggy designed?
 
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David A
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Delfar wrote:
Then villains with power as "Fight: this villain has Attack +2" are faulty/buggy designed?

My mind is coming up blank on villains with wording like this. Can you give an example?
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Dan J
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I'm not coming up with any either. Most that are along those lines just say something like "This gets +2 fight if you fight him in the sewers."
 
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