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Subject: Why does Israel's "self-defense" include murdering dozens of non-combatants? rss

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Rob M.
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tscook wrote:
Well, why?

A better question is "Why does Hamas place its rocket construction and launch sites in locations such as apartment buildings and schools?"
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William Boykin
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Exactly.

If Hamas had continued a policy of (mostly) non-violent protest, akin to the first Intifada, they would be putting a lot more pressure on Israel than they are right now.

Essentially, Hamas has made the cynical calculation that they can provoke Israel into over-reacting, and then broadcast the collateral damage all over the world in an attempt to raise sympathy in foreign nations and increase pressure on Israel to negotiate.

The problem is that Hamas overplayed their hand. Their rocket attacks have been increasing in numbers, and hiding them amongst the civilian population is being seen as an incredibly cynical- if not outright evil- act.

What's telling is that neither Saudi Arabia OR Turkey- both nations with strained relations with Israel- have gone out of their way to condemn Israel's response. Even the leadership of the Arab world, I think, feel that Israel was provoked by Hamas and are willing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt at this time.

Israel has a right to respond, but they should be careful to mitigate and minimize civilian casualities. But the fact remains-

This round was definitely provoked by Hamas.

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William Boykin
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So Israel should do nothing while their civilian population is rocketed routinely?

If Hamas was resisting more or less non-violently, I would be the first to condemn the overreaction by Israel in Gaza. But they aren't. Hamas is using violent, random attacks by rockets and then hiding in the civilian population of their own people, HOPING that Israel kills them, so they can put the pictures of the bloody carnage on Al-Jazeera.

That, I feel, is evil.

Darilian
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CHAPEL
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Shoot, the United States last resort self defense apparatus(nukes) are entirely targeting the destruction of most enemy civilian populations. Something we've already used before in the past.
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Rob M.
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tscook wrote:
Nice to see you're into collective punishment,

Why do you not hold Hamas to the same standard you appear to try to hold Israel? Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah all preach the slaughter of any Jew - Man woman or child. They launch unguided rockets with the intent to kill whoever is at the receiving end, regardless of gender, age, religion. Yet you say nothing. Israel launches guided missiles with the desire and intent to minimize civilian casualties and somehow you want to present them as the bad guys.

Your's is a purely emotional and propagandistic approach lacking in equity or honest analysis. That or you are incredibly dense.
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William Boykin
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More to the point-
Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza.

If one's own elected government decides to launch a terrorist war of rockets against their neighbor, and then hide amongst their own people- and YOU VOTED FOR THESE ASSHOLES- you have to ask yourself who is really to blame here.

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Why does Palestinian "desire for statehood" include firing hundreds of unguided rockets into Israeli cities and towns, in an attempt to murder innocent Israeli non-combatants?

We can just go round and round on this. I will say that Israeli military units are not stationed in the middle of crowded civilian communities, while interestingly enough, Palestinian military units, such as their rocket launching and bomb-making brigades, are always located squarely in the middle of Palestinian communities. I wonder why that is???
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Why does Palestinian "desire for statehood" include firing hundreds of unguided rockets into Israeli cities and towns, in an attempt to murder innocent Israeli non-combatants?

We can just go round and round on this. I will say that Israeli military units are not stationed in the middle of crowded civilian communities, while interestingly enough, Palestinian military units, such as their rocket launching and bomb-making brigades, are always located squarely in the middle of Palestinian communities. I wonder why that is???


Because Israel has a standing army while Hamas (which I do not support) is a guerilla force. Guerillas are irregulars who almost always live in the midst or the population they originate from (either that or they're out in the wilderness/up in the mountains). Irgun was a terrorist force and they also lived squarely in the middle of Jewish communities.
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tscook wrote:
Same thing but Israel~

e: Not so much a pro Hamas thread, but Israel is just as ugly.


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Rob M.
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tscook wrote:


Same thing but Israel~

e: Not so much a pro Hamas thread, but Israel is just as ugly.


Does Israel hide its military targets in civilian areas? Does Israel deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Does the official religion of Israel direct its followers to kill all Muslims? Does the school system of Israel indoctrinate its youth to become suicide bombers?

You are wrong. Israel is not just as ugly.
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kade wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Why does Palestinian "desire for statehood" include firing hundreds of unguided rockets into Israeli cities and towns, in an attempt to murder innocent Israeli non-combatants?

We can just go round and round on this. I will say that Israeli military units are not stationed in the middle of crowded civilian communities, while interestingly enough, Palestinian military units, such as their rocket launching and bomb-making brigades, are always located squarely in the middle of Palestinian communities. I wonder why that is???


Because Israel has a standing army while Hamas (which I do not support) is a guerilla force. Guerillas are irregulars who almost always live in the midst or the population they originate from (either that or they're out in the wilderness/up in the mountains). Irgun was a terrorist force and they also lived squarely in the middle of Jewish communities.


All true, the point being that Hamas uses its own people as human shields and as propaganda tools, callously knowing that when Israel strikes back, there will inevitably be civilian casualties, which Hamas uses in a calculating way to win media points. If Hamas actually cared about the people it claims to be fighting for, it would locate its bunkers and rocket launchers away from the civilians. Hamas spends its peoples' blood like cheap tokens in some kind of sick game. That's why I detest Hamas and groups like it - they not only have no honor, but they go beyond that - they actually use their own women and children as pawns in their strategy.

And, yes, I agree, the Irgun was a terrorist organization, and my condemnation of Hamas does not imply a blindly pro-Jewish/anti-Arab agenda on my part. I would not have supported the Irgun, and many prominent Jewish people at the time did not support it either.
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CHAPEL
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Israel is like a grown man up beating the crap out of a 12 year old delinquent who just kicked them in the nuts. It's probably justified, but they'll still come off looking like an asshole.
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MWChapel wrote:
Israel is like a grown man up beating the crap out of a 12 year old delinquent who just kicked them in the nuts. It's probably justified, but they'll still come off looking like an asshole.


Do you really not understand the consequences of having a rocket fall on a person? Do you actually not comprehend the difference between an explosive rocket or bomb and a "kick in the nuts?" Would you actually say this to someone who had a family member killed by one of these "kicks in the nuts?"

"Yeah, your husband and father might have just gotten killed but those soldiers trying to stop others from suffering the same fate are real assholes."
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tscook wrote:
Well, why?


I am convinced you are an absolute idiot.
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Does the earlier Israeli support and funding of Hamas, as an opposition to Fatah, add much to the complexity around the current killings?

It doesn't seem to lessen the responsibility of Hamas for maximising civilian deaths as PR talking points and video-bites.

Israel though: If I secretly fed my neighbour's pit bull human flesh, my complaint's that it's now eaten my daughter are somewhat tainted.
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R. Frazier
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I don't see how funding a group gives them license to kill you and makes you in some way complicit if they do.
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Gutrender wrote:
tscook wrote:


Same thing but Israel~

e: Not so much a pro Hamas thread, but Israel is just as ugly.


Does Israel hide its military targets in civilian areas? Does Israel deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Does the official religion of Israel direct its followers to kill all Muslims? Does the school system of Israel indoctrinate its youth to become suicide bombers?

You are wrong. Israel is not just as ugly.
Unfortunately the ways to become just as ugly are not limited to the methods that Hamas use to become ugly.

Kill ratios of palestinians/israelis when they become too one-sided look ugly as well. Though for me not as ugly. But thats very much a value judgement of mine and there is nothing objective about it.
 
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Israel has a right to defend itself. I assume they think that by massively retaliating it will act as a deterrent to future aggressors.

Palestinians have a right to their own state.

Why can't the two sides sit down and work it out? They tried that and Arafat rejected it.

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CHAPEL
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Psauberer wrote:

Do you really not understand the consequences of having a rocket fall on a person? Do you actually not comprehend the difference between an explosive rocket or bomb and a "kick in the nuts?" Would you actually say this to someone who had a family member killed by one of these "kicks in the nuts?"

"Yeah, your husband and father might have just gotten killed but those soldiers trying to stop others from suffering the same fate are real assholes."


Sorry, I am not personally invested in either side, so I am not affected by your logical appeal to emotion. I'm sure you may win the hearts of some people, but I still don't think the measured response should include citizens on either side. They kill innocent citizens, then you kill innocent citizens, and justify it with that appeal. It's unbalanced, and it'll come off as just that.
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rylfrazier wrote:
I don't see how funding a group gives them license to kill you and makes you in some way complicit if they do.
Well if I feed my neighbour's pit bull and give it a taste for huamn flesh then I am complicit in any attacks it makes on humans for the purpose of eating them.

In a similar way by funding a group I become to some degree responsible for what they do. The question would be one of degree - it might range from vanishingly small through to directly responsible, depending on a variety of factors.

I see Israel's responsibility in this case as being in the lower quartile of the range.
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tesuji wrote:
Israel has a right to defend itself. I assume they think that by massively retaliating it will act as a deterrent to future aggressors.

Palestinians have a right to their own state.

Why can't the two sides sit down and work it out? They tried that and Arafat rejected it.

LOL soblue There is no linear argument in this mess.
cf Arafat's death date, other accounts of who rejected what, likely truthfulness of all involved parties, perceived benefits to continue present situation outweigh perceived cost of change for all parties
 
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Pinook wrote:
Gutrender wrote:
tscook wrote:


Same thing but Israel~

e: Not so much a pro Hamas thread, but Israel is just as ugly.


Does Israel hide its military targets in civilian areas? Does Israel deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Does the official religion of Israel direct its followers to kill all Muslims? Does the school system of Israel indoctrinate its youth to become suicide bombers?

You are wrong. Israel is not just as ugly.
Unfortunately the ways to become just as ugly are not limited to the methods that Hamas use to become ugly.

Kill ratios of palestinians/israelis when they become too one-sided look ugly as well. Though for me not as ugly. But thats very much a value judgement of mine and there is nothing objective about it.


Judge this then.
If Palestinians stopped killing Israelis tomorrow then Israelis would stop killing Palestinians.
If Israelis stopped killing Palestinians tomorrow the Palestinians would continue to kill Israelis.

The kill ratios only exist because Palestinians insist on the killing.
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R. Frazier
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Pinook wrote:
rylfrazier wrote:
I don't see how funding a group gives them license to kill you and makes you in some way complicit if they do.
Well if I feed my neighbour's pit bull and give it a taste for huamn flesh then I am complicit in any attacks it makes on humans for the purpose of eating them.

In a similar way by funding a group I become to some degree responsible for what they do. The question would be one of degree - it might range from vanishingly small through to directly responsible, depending on a variety of factors.

I see Israel's responsibility in this case as being in the lower quartile of the range.
I think if you fund a group and then they attack you, you have more of a reason to kill them, not less.

I don't think your analogy makes any sense at all. They were not "feeding a pitbull human flesh" they were "giving money to a party that opposed a sworn enemy."

It wasn't unrealistic for them to hope that Hamas would turn out to be or could be made to be less dangerous to them than the alternative, and the fact that they had that hope does not make Hamas' current attacks their fault in any way.
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desertfox2004 wrote:
kade wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Why does Palestinian "desire for statehood" include firing hundreds of unguided rockets into Israeli cities and towns, in an attempt to murder innocent Israeli non-combatants?

We can just go round and round on this. I will say that Israeli military units are not stationed in the middle of crowded civilian communities, while interestingly enough, Palestinian military units, such as their rocket launching and bomb-making brigades, are always located squarely in the middle of Palestinian communities. I wonder why that is???


Because Israel has a standing army while Hamas (which I do not support) is a guerilla force. Guerillas are irregulars who almost always live in the midst or the population they originate from (either that or they're out in the wilderness/up in the mountains). Irgun was a terrorist force and they also lived squarely in the middle of Jewish communities.


All true, the point being that Hamas uses its own people as human shields and as propaganda tools, callously knowing that when Israel strikes back, there will inevitably be civilian casualties, which Hamas uses in a calculating way to win media points. If Hamas actually cared about the people it claims to be fighting for, it would locate its bunkers and rocket launchers away from the civilians. Hamas spends its peoples' blood like cheap tokens in some kind of sick game. That's why I detest Hamas and groups like it - they not only have no honor, but they go beyond that - they actually use their own women and children as pawns in their strategy.

And, yes, I agree, the Irgun was a terrorist organization, and my condemnation of Hamas does not imply a blindly pro-Jewish/anti-Arab agenda on my part. I would not have supported the Irgun, and many prominent Jewish people at the time did not support it either.


I didn'y say that you would have supported Irgun--now that you say you wouldn't have, ok, I believe you. My point was that irregular forces have to be somewhere, and if you look at the history of such groups/movements, regardless of their ethnic origins or religious sentiments they're typically found among the people who support them, or whose support they're trying to gain. It's not a strategy unique to Hamas. Palestinian irregulars are found amongst the Palestinian population, Jewish irregulars were found amongst the Jewish population, during the american civil war confederate irregulars were found among the "confederate population".

I want to be clear that I don't support violence against civilians.

I think your comments are highly moralistic and a little bit silly. Where would Hamas have such installations, where else would their miltary forces be locagted? The middle of the desert, in clearly marked locations that might as well have banners flying that say "ISRAELI BOMBS GO HERE"? You can support Hamas or not (I don't) but their behavior in these matters is dictated by the realities of the military situation, by the extreme imbalance of forces. Their behavior isn't substantially different from the behavior of Jewish or American guerilla fighters in analogous circumstances.

Also, generally speaking, governments don't locate military installations away from the civilian population because they want to minimize the danger to civilians, but because in moments of social crisis they don't want disgruntled civilians A)to have ready access to weapons, and B) to be able to fraternize with and demoralize the military that the government is depending for it's own survival. If Israel had nowhere else to put them, then their military would be located in civilian population centres.

Palestinian civilians have been targets since 1948. I guess maybe they thought that electing Hamas wouldn't make that any worse than it already was.
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Pinook wrote:
Does the earlier Israeli support and funding of Hamas, as an opposition to Fatah, add much to the complexity around the current killings


An analogy would be to describe Hamas as Israel's Taliban.
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