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Well why?
Why do you expect things to be different?

(edit: heh heh hope you all missed the creation of Palinstine in the title. :blush:)
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Jonny Lawless
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Re: the lessons you've learnt from Diplomacy and Risk don't apply to the Israel/Palenstine conflict WHY? (not a reasoning test for fervent atheists)
No one is building up and striking from Australia?
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This is exactly why standards should never be relaxed.
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jonnylawless wrote:
No one is building up and striking from Australia?


Yeah, I always take Australia in Diplomacy. Takes ages for anyone to get over to attack me.
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It seems to me Diplomacy lessons apply quite well.

Israel has strong allies (US, UK etc.) and uses that strength to make itself stronger, making itself a more desirable ally: many countries are very interested in its Iron Dome ABM/anti-mortar system.

The Palestinians are weak, yet they persist in attacking a much stronger Israel; as a result, they "invariably get thrashed", and are a weaker, poorer-quality ally after that. What the Palestinians mostly get is verbal support, which is to say, the same BS you get from players in Diplomacy when you can't give them anything they want.

Even Risk has some application. The Israelis invariable attack only when they can roll three dice (and a commander's d8 if you play one of those versions); they never trade in their cards without gaining maximum benefit. The Palestinians continually make 1 die attacks against 2 die areas, and fail.

Over four million Palestinians seem weaker than the never more than 50,000 Taliban. Or, Little Saigon, near me, was founded by ex-pat Vietnamese, escaping from the collapse of South Vietnam. Westminster, one of the cities containing parts of Little Saigon, has a Vietnamese-American mayor. The local population is under 200,000, yet has a very strong economic presence, as well as an international cultural presence, even reaching into Ho Chi Minh City (née Saigon). Many local cities have a Vietnamese restaurant, despite their tendency to annoy the locals by naming them "Pho King Way" or some such.
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DCAnderson wrote:
Diplomacy and Risk are not an accurate portrayal of pretty much any war, because war is not a zero sum game where you only win if you've completely wiped out all opposition.

Diplomacy is an accurate portrayal of diplomacy; it was never intended to accurately portray war. I won't defend Risk.
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DCAnderson wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
Diplomacy and Risk are not an accurate portrayal of pretty much any war, because war is not a zero sum game where you only win if you've completely wiped out all opposition.

Diplomacy is an accurate portrayal of diplomacy; it was never intended to accurately portray war. I won't defend Risk.


Diplomacy forces you to make alliances, but those alliances are ultimately short lived and disposable because EVERYONE in the game is competing over the same zero-sum map.

Depends. Many Diplomacy games allow an alliance to end the game, as happened in real life. As far as being zero-sum, I haven't noticed Europe getting any bigger.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
Diplomacy and Risk are not an accurate portrayal of pretty much any war, because war is not a zero sum game where you only win if you've completely wiped out all opposition.

Diplomacy is an accurate portrayal of diplomacy; it was never intended to accurately portray war. I won't defend Risk.


Diplomacy forces you to make alliances, but those alliances are ultimately short lived and disposable because EVERYONE in the game is competing over the same zero-sum map.

Depends. Many Diplomacy games allow an alliance to end the game, as happened in real life. As far as being zero-sum, I haven't noticed Europe getting any bigger.


Land area is not the only measure. It's not even a particularly important measure. Things like wealth are distinctly non-zero sum, even if imports and exports with the rest of the world were constant.
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Diplomacy and risk are games and no one gets hurt. Thus it does not matter how big an arse you act you will all go home and have a cup of tea after the game. It seems to me (sometimes) that many leaders view war as just that, a board game with maps.

By the way if you ignore religion you ignore a key feature of the conflict.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
Land area is not the only measure. It's not even a particularly important measure. Things like wealth are distinctly non-zero sum, even if imports and exports with the rest of the world were constant.

This is not going to be a WWII-type production war, however. Wars now are pretty much "come as you are": the weapons you have are the ones you get to use. Sure, Israel might build a few more Iron Dome interceptors and Hamas might assemble a few more missiles; but for the most part, what you start with is what you fight with. The larger the weapon system, the more that's true.

The production battle was fought before the war started. Hamas lost. If Gaza were even a slightly productive area of the world, they'd probably be more interested in getting wealth by wages instead of war.

Look at Taiwan. Their ancestrial homeland is occupied to a far greater extent that the Palestinians. Yet, their per capita GDP(PPP) is higher than 20th in the world, while China's is about 90th.

Since this thread started unapologitically with game references, let's keep going with that. Imagine a game of Puerto Rico (Agricola if you prefer). Player I starts by laying the foundation of his economic engine; player P whines that he ought to get I's engine (not that, apparently, he'd know how to operate it). Player I continues by aggressive building, increasing his economic power; player P continues to whine that he wants I's engine (despite being still less capable of using it). Now, the time comes to collect VPs and see who has the most (war): Player I can generate VPs easily; player P cannot.

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Jonny Lawless
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The Message wrote:
jonnylawless wrote:
No one is building up and striking from Australia?


Yeah, I always take Australia in Diplomacy. Takes ages for anyone to get over to attack me.


Agreed. I won't play without the "Down Under" expansion.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Land area is not the only measure. It's not even a particularly important measure. Things like wealth are distinctly non-zero sum, even if imports and exports with the rest of the world were constant.

This is not going to be a WWII-type production war, however. Wars now are pretty much "come as you are": the weapons you have are the ones you get to use. Sure, Israel might build a few more Iron Dome interceptors and Hamas might assemble a few more missiles; but for the most part, what you start with is what you fight with. The larger the weapon system, the more that's true.


Note that my comment was in reply to a comment about Europe's land area. I haven't made any comment on the Israel/Palrstine issue. So your reply puts my comment out of context.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
Re: the lessons you've learnt from Diplomacy and Risk don't apply to the Israel/Palestine conflict WHY? (not a reasoning test for fervent atheists)
Tall_Walt wrote:
Dearlove (emphasis added) wrote:
Land area is not the only measure. It's not even a particularly important measure. Things like wealth are distinctly non-zero sum, even if imports and exports with the rest of the world were constant.

This is not going to be a WWII-type production war, however. Wars now are pretty much "come as you are": the weapons you have are the ones you get to use. Sure, Israel might build a few more Iron Dome interceptors and Hamas might assemble a few more missiles; but for the most part, what you start with is what you fight with. The larger the weapon system, the more that's true.

Note that my comment was in reply to a comment about Europe's land area. I haven't made any comment on the Israel/Palrstine issue. So your reply puts my comment out of context.

It's in the context of the thread and your comments on wealth.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Re: the lessons you've learnt from Diplomacy and Risk don't apply to the Israel/Palestine conflict WHY? (not a reasoning test for fervent atheists)
Tall_Walt wrote:
Dearlove (emphasis added) wrote:
Land area is not the only measure. It's not even a particularly important measure. Things like wealth are distinctly non-zero sum, even if imports and exports with the rest of the world were constant.

This is not going to be a WWII-type production war, however. Wars now are pretty much "come as you are": the weapons you have are the ones you get to use. Sure, Israel might build a few more Iron Dome interceptors and Hamas might assemble a few more missiles; but for the most part, what you start with is what you fight with. The larger the weapon system, the more that's true.

Note that my comment was in reply to a comment about Europe's land area. I haven't made any comment on the Israel/Palrstine issue. So your reply puts my comment out of context.

It's in the context of the thread and your comments on wealth.


That's complete rubbish. I made a comment on something specific, you chopped all the context and replied as if I'd made my comment on something else. But that should now be clear to anyone else who comes along.
 
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