Amin
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If your “Ramsay Bolton” House card is in your discard pile, immediately return it to your hand. If you lose this combat, you may return Reek to your hand.

My original question was going to be: Stark's last House Card is Reek and Stark loses that combat, would he return all seven of his House Cards to his hand or just Reek?

However, if Stark's last House Card is Reek, then Ramsay would always be in the discard pile. Then, Ramsay would come back right away and prevent Stark from gaining back the other cards at the end of combat?


 
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From the card descriptions, it sounds to me like Ramsay would be back in the hand before the end of combat, and so it would not be appropriate for all discarded cards to be returned to the hand.

As for returning Reek, it says "you MAY return Reek to your hand", and so it would be up to the Stark player to decide.

At least, this is my impression.
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I think this goes hand in hand with Melisandre's ability when she's the last card, but I'm curious why else the developers would put "return any house card in your discard pile (including this card)" in the description. It makes sense that the logical order would be:

1. Combat ends (Bara plays last card Melisandre, units routed, etc)
2. Activate Melisandre's ability and spend 2PT
3. Return Melisandre to your empty hand
4. Your hand is not empty, so you continue with only Melisandre.

After a close examination of the rules, it seems the time to replenish your hand comes after all text abilities are resolved, so I'm good with this explanation.

But it would be soooooo awesome to be able to use Melisandre as your last card to get a full hand again!
 
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Ru
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smithdj08 wrote:
I think this goes hand in hand with Melisandre's ability when she's the last card, but I'm curious why else the developers would put "return any house card in your discard pile (including this card)" in the description. It makes sense that the logical order would be:

1. Combat ends (Bara plays last card Melisandre, units routed, etc)
2. Activate Melisandre's ability and spend 2PT
3. Return Melisandre to your empty hand
4. Your hand is not empty, so you continue with only Melisandre.

After a close examination of the rules, it seems the time to replenish your hand comes after all text abilities are resolved, so I'm good with this explanation.

But it would be soooooo awesome to be able to use Melisandre as your last card to get a full hand again!


Actually, the rules seem to state that this is possible. Rulebook page 19 states:
At the end of a combat, if a player used his last (i.e. seventh) House card, he then returns the other six Hourse cards currently in his discard pile to his hand. The last played card remains in the discard pile.

Melisandre's ability states:
After combat, you may return any House card in your discard pile including this card to your hand by discarding a number of your available power tokens equal to the printed combat strength of that card.

At the end of combat, you replenish your hand. After combat, you regain Melisandre. Seems clear to me.
It's similar to Patchface in 2nd edition. If Baratheon plays Patchface while his opponent plays his last card, the opponent has to replenish his hand first and then the Baratheon player is allowed to discard one card from his new hand (as mentioned in the FAQ for Roose Bolton vs Patchface).

So yeah, I guess DwD Melisandre is awesome in that way .
 
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Muradrim wrote:
smithdj08 wrote:
I think this goes hand in hand with Melisandre's ability when she's the last card, but I'm curious why else the developers would put "return any house card in your discard pile (including this card)" in the description. It makes sense that the logical order would be:

1. Combat ends (Bara plays last card Melisandre, units routed, etc)
2. Activate Melisandre's ability and spend 2PT
3. Return Melisandre to your empty hand
4. Your hand is not empty, so you continue with only Melisandre.

After a close examination of the rules, it seems the time to replenish your hand comes after all text abilities are resolved, so I'm good with this explanation.

But it would be soooooo awesome to be able to use Melisandre as your last card to get a full hand again!


Actually, the rules seem to state that this is possible. Rulebook page 19 states:
At the end of a combat, if a player used his last (i.e. seventh) House card, he then returns the other six Hourse cards currently in his discard pile to his hand. The last played card remains in the discard pile.

Melisandre's ability states:
After combat, you may return any House card in your discard pile including this card to your hand by discarding a number of your available power tokens equal to the printed combat strength of that card.

At the end of combat, you replenish your hand. After combat, you regain Melisandre. Seems clear to me.
It's similar to Patchface in 2nd edition. If Baratheon plays Patchface while his opponent plays his last card, the opponent has to replenish his hand first and then the Baratheon player is allowed to discard one card from his new hand (as mentioned in the FAQ for Roose Bolton vs Patchface).

So yeah, I guess DwD Melisandre is awesome in that way .


Hmmmm, I was still curious about this myself. The rules on p19 also state that text abilities of cards get resolved before the hand gets replenished. At least the rules are shown in that order. The line immediately before your quote above states:

"The text ability of the first card is implemented completely before that of the second card."

I am interested to hear more opinion on this.
 
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Ru
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smithdj08 wrote:
Muradrim wrote:
smithdj08 wrote:
I think this goes hand in hand with Melisandre's ability when she's the last card, but I'm curious why else the developers would put "return any house card in your discard pile (including this card)" in the description. It makes sense that the logical order would be:

1. Combat ends (Bara plays last card Melisandre, units routed, etc)
2. Activate Melisandre's ability and spend 2PT
3. Return Melisandre to your empty hand
4. Your hand is not empty, so you continue with only Melisandre.

After a close examination of the rules, it seems the time to replenish your hand comes after all text abilities are resolved, so I'm good with this explanation.

But it would be soooooo awesome to be able to use Melisandre as your last card to get a full hand again!


Actually, the rules seem to state that this is possible. Rulebook page 19 states:
At the end of a combat, if a player used his last (i.e. seventh) House card, he then returns the other six Hourse cards currently in his discard pile to his hand. The last played card remains in the discard pile.

Melisandre's ability states:
After combat, you may return any House card in your discard pile including this card to your hand by discarding a number of your available power tokens equal to the printed combat strength of that card.

At the end of combat, you replenish your hand. After combat, you regain Melisandre. Seems clear to me.
It's similar to Patchface in 2nd edition. If Baratheon plays Patchface while his opponent plays his last card, the opponent has to replenish his hand first and then the Baratheon player is allowed to discard one card from his new hand (as mentioned in the FAQ for Roose Bolton vs Patchface).

So yeah, I guess DwD Melisandre is awesome in that way .


Hmmmm, I was still curious about this myself. The rules on p19 also state that text abilities of cards get resolved before the hand gets replenished. At least the rules are shown in that order. The line immediately before your quote above states:

"The text ability of the first card is implemented completely before that of the second card."

I am interested to hear more opinion on this.


Text abilities that are performed during combat get resolved before the hand is replenished. This is stated specifically, because technically, the moment you show your last card could be taken as the moment to take all other cards back in your hand. The line means you first resolve combat, then take the card back in your hand.
The first card is implemented before the second is meant for situations where two cards with similar effects (e.g. "Immediatly...") are played. In that case, the first card (Iron Throne first) is resolved before the second card. This can also be taken from the FAQ or Additional Answers document.

I understand your skepticism though. If you are unsure, you can always send a message to Fantasy Flight, they're known to answer most of such questions quite fast
 
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T.J.
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The FAQ says:

Q: If a House card’s text ability says “after
combat...,” when is that card resolved?

A: At the end of the Combat Clean Up step of
Combat Resolution (after played House cards are
discarded to their respective discard piles).

Which is still sort of ambiguous, because the aforementioned quote from page 19 never says when do you replenish your hand. However, it does explicitly say that you replenish your hand after discarding and discarding is in the combat clean up step, presumably before 'after combat' effect. As Ru Muradim said, the answers about Patchface from the FAQ are instuctive about this:

Q: If the Baratheon player plays his “Patchface”
House card but his opponent is playing his last
remaining House card, does the Baratheon player still
get to discard one of his opponent’s House cards?

A: Yes, Patchface’s text ability would allow the
Baratheon player to discard one of his opponent’s six
House cards at the end of the Combat Clean Up step.

Q: If House Stark plays his “Roose Bolton” House
card (and loses) against House Baratheon’s “Patchface”
House card, in which order are the two text effects
resolved? Does Baratheon get to discard one of Stark’s
House cards after he has already drawn back his
full hand?

A: Roose’s text ability is resolved first, followed
by Patchface’s. The Stark player would first draw all
his cards back to his hand and then the Baratheon
player would look through his newly drawn hand
to choose one to discard.
 
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