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Combat Commander: Battle Pack #5 – Fall of the West» Forums » General

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Freddy Dekker
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When I heard this one was coming, I was hoping for some Dutch scenarioes.

Maybe the next battle pack could be about the countries they,ve forgotten sofar.
 
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Tanks Alot
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Freddy I am so tempted to put "You cant always get what you want" in the reply here, but I know how it feels sometimes to not get what you expected on some expansions. There is just so much great material to be covered!
Maybe in the Fall of the West #2? You really should consider changing the thread title to something more in line with what you are upset about though.

Hope all is well. Good to see you playing combat commander too!
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Jeff Yeackle
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I can understand how you feel, but what will probably happen is you'll see a bunch of replies along the lines of "if you wanna see it, design it yourself!" While that probably isn't the answer you're looking for, check out this thread here:

Where is the Warsaw Uprising?

It starts off with a question, gets kinda nasty, then works itself out. If I recall, it provides some good insight in how these Battle Packs get started as well, and might give you an idea on how to get one rolling that will contain the type of scenarios you'd like to see.
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Freddy Dekker
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Well with most people being so positive about everything about the game, I figured it might be good to have it known there is also something to be les cheery about.

No need to start heated discissions,we all know it's agreat game,and I'm considering buying more as we speak.

But I think many gamers in the minor allied nations, would like to see the battles that took place in their countries appear in a CC scenario.
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Tanks Alot
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I love unusual stuff like that though so I understand. Thats why I really like Lock n Load Heroes games like Ring of Hills or Day of Heroes. Not for the feint of heart, but some really cool stuff. I love ww2 normandy as much as the next guy, but its really cool to see the unknown wars!

I think I feel a grog seizure coming on...


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Jeff Yeackle
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sagitar wrote:
But I think many gamers in the minor allied nations, would like to see the battles that took place in their countries appear in a CC scenario.


That's why I linked to that particular thread, since it covers a similar topic: scenarios that aren't mainstream and a feeling of being left out.

There's feedback from the core CC folks which I thought was really helpful and showed they're listening. There was sadly just some heated parts, that were totally unnecessary (and not intended by the OP), to wade through though.

I didn't even realize the Dutch were involved in WW2, I thought it was just America vs. Germany and Japan. Kidding! I would *love* to see some attention paid to South East Asia (Thailand, Burma, Vietnam, etc) myself.
 
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Chadwik
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I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario or two featuring the hearty Dutch forces. I'm of one-quarter Dutch descent myself (from about the left hip down, I think).
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Bryan Collars
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Freddy,

As one of the designers I certainly hope that you will not be disappointed with the BP.

The scenarios chosen for the BP were selected for any number of reasons. Interesting situations, pivotal moments in the campaign, campaign defining actions are just some of them. No matter from where a scenario springs from though what is necessary and cannot be dispensed with is source material. My half of the BP design was to focus on the BEF, Belgians, Norway, and the Netherlands. It was my sincere hope at the start of the design process to include at least 1 scenario from each of those participants. For six months before desing work commenced I read at least 5 full histories of the campaign (which lead me to a number of other source materials) and helped define the areas I wished to highlight with scenarios. However, what I was unable to find was source material to allow me to identify a specific action for the Netherlands that ignited my design juices and compelled me to include it in the BP as a scenario. That is not to say there are no actions/situations/encounters that deserve to be included but rather that they have yet to show themselves to me.

That notwithstanding I be would happy to personally design a Netherlands scenario if you would be willing to help identify a suitable candidate and provide source material (or point me in its direction) to provide the necessary background info for it to be accurate.

Best,
Bryan Collars
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Chadwik
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Interestingly, I just took a quick look at my ASL scenario database (yeah, I do that). I possess well over 500 scenarios for that game. A grand total of 3 feature the Dutch. So it appears we're not the only game system having difficulty finding game-able situations for the forces of the Netherlands.
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Freddy Dekker
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Chad Jensen wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario or two featuring the hearty Dutch forces. I'm of one-quarter Dutch descent myself (from about the left hip down, I think).



Haha, so you can blame the Dutch for limping laugh

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It's just a ride...
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Interestingly, I just took a quick look at my ASL scenario database (yeah, I do that). I possess well over 500 scenarios for that game. A grand total of 3 feature the Dutch. So it appears we're not the only game system having difficulty finding game-able situations for the forces of the Netherlands.


Only 2 really, when you consider that one of the 3 is the notoriously unbalanced 'Piercing the Peel'.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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NinetySixer wrote:
Freddy,

As one of the designers I certainly hope that you will not be disappointed with the BP.


I believe there is very little chance of anyone being disappointed with the BP. CC is a fun game and I have sofar not heard of any BP being disliked for what is in it.

In my case it is more a disappointment with what is NOT in it.
The name of the BP gave me high hopes that we might get a chance to play CC with our own boys at the front.

Ofcourse I fully understand why you'd go with the more famous events, the ones known by a larger crowd.


Quote:

The scenarios chosen for the BP were selected for any number of reasons. Interesting situations, pivotal moments in the campaign, campaign defining actions are just some of them. No matter from where a scenario springs from though what is necessary and cannot be dispensed with is source material. My half of the BP design was to focus on the BEF, Belgians, Norway, and the Netherlands. It was my sincere hope at the start of the design process to include at least 1 scenario from each of those participants. For six months before desing work commenced I read at least 5 full histories of the campaign (which lead me to a number of other source materials) and helped define the areas I wished to highlight with scenarios. However, what I was unable to find was source material to allow me to identify a specific action for the Netherlands that ignited my design juices and compelled me to include it in the BP as a scenario. That is not to say there are no actions/situations/encounters that deserve to be included but rather that they have yet to show themselves to me.


I really understand your problem.
I've nagged about Dutch scenarioes before and someone told me to try and write one myself and so I did,[try that is] full welll knowing that I would not have the experience with the game to be really succesfull.

I decided to go with the revolt of the Georgiers on the isle of texel.
Seemed like the perfect CC scenario, i.e. no vehicles.
Made some progress to untill I than got bogged down in details.
I probably went for too much historical correctness.

So at one point I decided to put it asside for a while and than some day pick it up again with a fresh state of mind.

Even when the suitable history event is there, it must be really hard to also make a good game out of it.

Quote:
That notwithstanding I be would happy to personally design a Netherlands scenario if you would be willing to help identify a suitable candidate and provide source material (or point me in its direction) to provide the necessary background info for it to be accurate.

Best,
Bryan Collars


Well of course I'm allways willing to help anyway I can.

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Freddy Dekker
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Interestingly, I just took a quick look at my ASL scenario database (yeah, I do that). I possess well over 500 scenarios for that game. A grand total of 3 feature the Dutch. So it appears we're not the only game system having difficulty finding game-able situations for the forces of the Netherlands.


So there's a great challenge for you, to succeed where the other system has not.

Have you ever considered asking the gamers to suggest scenarioes?
You might get some unexpected ideas and the inspiration for new battle packs.

Unfortunatly sofar I didn't manage to get my hands on the paratroopers battle pack,so I don't know what's in that one, but in this one you could have had some Dutch scenarioes.

Granted the most famous one would still not have Dutch troops, but there was another battle using paratroopers when the Germans attacked.
Hm, just realised the battle pack probably doesn't have german paratroopers.. or does it?
 
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Mark Buetow
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While Chad is the designer of the game, he isn't the main guy for doing Battlepacks. Bryan Collars is one of those guys and he asked.
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Freddy Dekker
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And I replied to him.
So?
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Andrew Laws
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Freddy, send me your stuff that you've worked on so far and I'll see if I can knock it about a bit and generate a scenario card.

I've devised a scenario where Brandenburgers attack a fortified bridge from both sides, I know this happened at the Ijssel and Maas bridges but no specifics.

The same goes for my attempt to devise a scenario on the Seaplane Landings in the centre of Rotterdam. I know two German platoons landed and took the Willemsbrug bridge, but I don't how how they did it.
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Freddy Dekker
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They simply landed the planes on the river and rowed ashore.

The only real resistance they experienced on arrival was from Rotterdam's police force.

Of course no match for them.
These guys weren't supposed to attack the Germans nor equiped or trained to do so, but I reckon they figured them Germans were law breakers and should be stopped.

Rotterdam was a garisson city at the time, but had no front line troops.
Mostly soldiers who had a supporting role.
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Jérôme
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Nothing heroic about Grebbeberg?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Grebbeberg
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John Foley
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I realize it might be a fool's errand to resurrect this thread, but I thought I would comment in reply to Bryan's upstanding offer to receive more material that might lead to scenarios especially for the Netherlands.

My comment is more about limitations than anything else.

When I design something, I am working with whatever gifts I happen to have, such as they might be. One of those gifts is being able to see something in a text that causes the poor, weak vessel of my brain to imagine some things all in one unity: the narrative, the purpose, the scope, the puzzle challenge, the timeframe, the mechanical strength of the situation in the system terms, and so on and so forth.

One designer (me in this case) is limited in so many ways - that is - I cannot tell you why something ignited that "unity" I described above. Try as I might, I cannot simply ordain a scenario for a setting, a people, a time, a place, without something firing my poor limited imagination.

I wish I could have filled this gap, I'm sure Bryan did as well. My point is that given my life circumstances, my meager gifts, I scrabbled hard against the rock pile (this BP was on my radar for *YEARS*) and only came up with what I could come up with.

I hope our Dutch friends will take up Bryan's genuine offer and help us figure out how to fill the gap and make some wonderful scenarios about the Dutch resistance in the face of the nearly impossible tide.
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Chuck Meeks
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Here is a good site that speaks to the actions that took place regarding the Dutch. I am sure that it would be useful to anyone that wanted to take a stab at designing a few scenarios. Just click on the dates at he top and follow the links on the left for some great information.

http://www.waroverholland.nl

Oh yeah... BP5 looks great! Keep up the good work guys!
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Nuno Gonzalez
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Rotterdam bridges May 1940
Hope to see in a near future one or two scenarios between Dutch troops and german paratropers in the fight for the Rotterdam bridges in the first days of the war in the West.
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Thomas V
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agripa wrote:
Hope to see in a near future one or two scenarios between Dutch troops and german paratropers in the fight for the Rotterdam bridges in the first days of the war in the West.


create a RSG with some special rules and there you are
 
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Freddy Dekker
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agripa wrote:
Hope to see in a near future one or two scenarios between Dutch troops and german paratropers in the fight for the Rotterdam bridges in the first days of the war in the West.


For sure there are more scenarioes to dream up when it comes to the German invasion of the Netherlands.

In the big picture it may seem like the Germans simply walked over in 5 days, but rest assured the German battle reports will not have spoken of ONLY 5 days.

Most likely they had expected to do it in 1 or 2 and it might have taken longer had they not become desperate and resorted to such criminal actions as bombing the civilian population.

This made those in charge decided to give up when most of the army was just getting into the fight and not in a mood to give up at all.


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